Policing Slavery & Black Rebellion in the American South

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[SPEAKER_02]: This is Unsung History, the podcast where we discuss people and events in American history that haven't always received a lot of attention.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Kelly Theresa Pollock.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'll start each episode with a brief introduction to the topic and then talk to someone who knows a lot more than I do.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Be sure to subscribe to Unsung History on your favorite podcasting app so you

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[SPEAKER_02]: Captive Africans first arrived in Virginia in 1619.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Forcibly shipped there aboard the white lion to provide unfree labor for the colonists.

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[SPEAKER_02]: The colonists were already extracting labor from white indentured servants and from enslaved Native Americans.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But the labor shortage was so acute that the colonists began to import and slave to people to British North America from Africa in such huge numbers that by 1700, there were more than 25,000 enslaved Africans living there.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps unsurprisingly, the people that the colonists enslaved and forced to labor resisted this fate by fleeing or by fighting back.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Inslaveed people running away was such a problem that by 1641 the Maryland General Assembly passed.

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[SPEAKER_02]: and act against fugitives, which declared it a felony for, quote, any apprentice servant to depart away secretly from his or her master or Dame, then being with intent to convey him or herself away out of the province, unquote.

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[SPEAKER_02]: The general assembly later added that in order to apprehend the fugitive servants, constables could pursue with, quote, hue and cry, unquote, or in other words, with a

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[SPEAKER_02]: As the enslaved labor force shifted quickly to one that was primarily Africans or those of African descent, lawmakers reacted by creating racialized legislation.

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[SPEAKER_02]: a 1680 law in Virginia outlined quote it shall not be lawful for any Negro or other slave to carry or arm himself with any club staff gun sword or any other weapon of defense or offense.

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[SPEAKER_02]: nor to go or depart from his master's ground without a certificate from his master, mistress or overseer, and such permission not to be granted, but upon particular unnecessary occasions, unquote.

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[SPEAKER_02]: A decade later, South Carolina took things a step further, by not just requiring that enslaved people carry passes,

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[SPEAKER_02]: but also by granting authority to all white civilians, just by virtue of their skin color, to interrogate any person with darker skin and to demand to see their pass.

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[SPEAKER_02]: By 1701, South Carolina law expanded the power of those white interrogators, giving them the authority to assault or even kill any black person

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[SPEAKER_02]: And when constables in Charleston needed help catching runaways, they could call a posse comatatus and impress white men into service in search of runaways.

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[SPEAKER_02]: White enslavers worried not just about the loss of their enslaved workforce, but also about violent rebellion by the enslaved.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Armed uprisings were not frequent, but the threat was real.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So concerned were lawmakers in South Carolina about potential threat.

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[SPEAKER_02]: That in August 1739, the General Assembly passed a law requiring that all white men

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[SPEAKER_02]: The law also required the church officials report those who did not.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Just weeks later, on September 9th, their fears were realized.

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[SPEAKER_02]: When an enslaved man named Jimmy, who was later called Cato, launched the largest slave rebellion in British North America, near a branch of the Stono River.

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[SPEAKER_02]: be heading to white men, and stealing weapons.

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[SPEAKER_02]: They marched to the beat of a drum and shouted liberty, while seeking out insolvers to kill, and stealing additional guns.

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[SPEAKER_02]: They were caught while celebrating when the Lieutenant Governor spotted their camp, and

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[SPEAKER_02]: and captured more who were sold into slavery in the West Indies.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Keto fled and may have made it flora.

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[SPEAKER_02]: In the aftermath of the Stono Rebellion, the South Carolina legislature adopted a 20-page slave code that presumed that every black person was a slave,

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[SPEAKER_02]: and slayers, including women, were required to assume monthly patrol duties in their patrol districts.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Those patrolling in the district were not just required to demand passes from black people, but also to search the living quarters of the enslaved.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Other colonies developed their own patrol systems, sometimes in the wake of rebellions

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[SPEAKER_02]: During the American Revolution, the British took advantage of the desire of enslaved people to escape.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And, in an attempt to destabilize Virginia, Lord Dunmore declared martial law, and proclaimed that, vote all indentured servants, Negroes, or others, on vote, who joined the British Army, would be given their freedom.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Dunmore was forced out of Virginia, but other British officers pursued similar strategies.

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[SPEAKER_02]: When the British surrendered in September 1781, they refused to return former slaves to the Americans.

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[SPEAKER_02]: the British commander, Sir Guy Carlton, produced a book of Negroes for Washington that listed where around 3,000 formerly enslaved people had settled, including a Nova Scotia, London and Sierra Leone.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Promising freedom to the enslaved may not have won the revolution for the British.

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[SPEAKER_02]: but it continued to spur the fears of enslavers in the southern states.

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[SPEAKER_02]: During the Civil War, the Union Army pursued similar tactics.

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[SPEAKER_02]: With so many white men in the south busy fighting and unable to patrol, enslaved people began to emancipate themselves, running toward the Union Army and freedom.

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[SPEAKER_02]: At first, the Union Army had no policy to deal with the self-immancipators, but as early as May 1861, Union Brigadier General Benjamin Butler began hiring former slaves.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And in the summer of 1862, the Union began to accept self-immancipated men into the Army.

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[SPEAKER_02]: The January 1863 emancipation proclamation legally freed all enslaved people in the Confederacy.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Although in practice until those areas were liberated by the Union Army, many people remained enslaved.

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[SPEAKER_02]: In December 1865,

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[SPEAKER_02]: The 13th Amendment the Constitution was ratified, outlawing slavery everywhere in the United States, including in the border states that had been exempt from the emancipation proclamation.

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[SPEAKER_02]: The end of slavery, though, was not the end of white violence against black people in the

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[SPEAKER_02]: Joining me in this episode is Dr. Gotham Rao, associate professor of history at American University in Washington, D.C., and to author of White Power, policing American slavery.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I got them.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for joining me today.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for having me on.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to say I'm excited to talk to you.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It's not the most happy of topics to talk about, but I'm very much looking forward to the conversation.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Want to start by hearing a little bit about why you wrote this book.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I understand you've been working on this topic thinking about it for a very long time, but of course you had another book previous to this.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So why did you decide for your second book?

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[SPEAKER_02]: This is what you wanted to write about.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So I started working on this book completely unrelated to the topic of slavery.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I was really interested in the question of why do people obey the law and why do people do what they're supposed to do?

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[SPEAKER_03]: And ultimately, you know, you get to a place where that becomes about the fear of consequences.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And in the case of law enforcement,

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[SPEAKER_03]: it's really about compulsion, right?

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[SPEAKER_03]: The idea that you're being the law says you have to do this and you feel a compulsion to do it.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so I started looking at some of the phenomena in the book that end up being about slavery, initially looking at it and that's totally different context.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But the more more I got into it in American history and the further back I went, the more I kept seeing the idea of compulsory obligatory service to the government or the state as being connected to the problem of unruly or

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[SPEAKER_03]: rebellious enslaved people.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's where this all started back in about 2003 when I first started thinking about it.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And as I started to piece that together and see those connections become more evident, moving forward, it was difficult to avoid seeing connections with the with the everyday horrific things that were happening in terms of racialized policing in America.

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[SPEAKER_03]: by the time I got into the past decade or so that racialized policing narrative in America and the American present was really bringing back for me some pre-point stories that I was seeing in the American past.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Connecting past and present then in the book became the goal.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And as you mentioned, I have been working on a long time, and I gave some some dates that will date me and provide my age to the listener, but it has changed so much over time and almost unrecognizable from where I did begin.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You deliberately wrote this book to be accessible to a broader audience.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what that looks like, what the difference is between writing for just an academic audience versus a broader one.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So for me, you know, I'd never done anything like this.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I'd never written anything that was this length that was for a broader public.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And that's, I think, part of the training of a historian is that we are told that it's crucial to become the specialist in one area and to really kind of build out your bonafides in that area.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And to write

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[SPEAKER_03]: for the approval of the people who know that area and adjacent topics.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, I'm a real, I don't mean to tune my own horn here, but I'm like a huge nerd beyond normal levels of nerdiness and like I love just reading footnotes.

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[SPEAKER_03]: This is my favorite thing and I love historography and the philosophy of history.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so all this stuff was how I kind of informed my approach to being a historian,

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[SPEAKER_03]: And I'd written this book out fully at about double the length.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It was about 250,000 words, so a little more than double.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And I'd written it before academic historians in mind.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And I was workshopping chapters.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And I kept getting feedback from friends and people who knew the topic that, you know, this is an important topic you should probably

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[SPEAKER_03]: try to see if you can at least get get it to a bigger audience.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And I kept saying, well, how does one do that?

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[SPEAKER_03]: You know, without thinking that it was the way I was framing it, it was just about marketing or something like that.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And it was really around 2016, 2017, where I had some serious chats with people who told me, no, you really need to rewrite it.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so having written it out, I then set down to redo the whole thing and you know, realize that the stories that I wanted to tell

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[SPEAKER_03]: were fascinating.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And I could include more by graphical details and more of the kind of poignant scenery that will draw our reader in without really losing what I was aiming to convey about the nature of a slaveholder's government.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, it was all a lot.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It was probably the toughest thing I've done on my career to try to translate what I'd done in an academic setting to

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[SPEAKER_03]: without losing kind of the rigorous aiming for translating it for a broader audience and meant that every word was painstaking and every paragraph had to be structured a certain way and the stories again have to be compelling, but they also have to have a point.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I won't I won't lie to you, it was really challenging and it's not something that now diswaves me from trying

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[SPEAKER_03]: kind of the varieties of history, if you will.

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[SPEAKER_03]: The idea of different kinds of history is appealing to different kinds of audiences.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And too often, I think in academics circles, we're prone to critiquing the the more popular type history is saying, oh, it's easier.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And what I learned is that this certainly not at least from a writing perspective at all easier.

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[SPEAKER_02]: The title of this book is White Power.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You talk in the book about deputizing whiteness.

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[SPEAKER_02]: What does that mean in the context of this history in the context of the work that you're doing?

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[SPEAKER_02]: What does it mean to be using whiteness not just as an accident or something, but as the actual defining character of this power?

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[SPEAKER_03]: The use of deputizing whiteness in the book is a really good example of the difference I think between doing this kind of project for a broader audience versus doing it for an academic one.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Within the academic world, of course, the concept of whiteness is its own enormous literature, really impressive that spans different field history in American studies, sociology,

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[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, one could write this book, certain from the perspective of all those fields and the many insights and brilliant scholars.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I took a much more literal approach here, which was to look at the laws themselves, and the extent to which race was explicitly part of how the laws are formulated.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So,

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[SPEAKER_03]: Let's think about a basic law that was common to American slavery, which was the past law.

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[SPEAKER_03]: The idea that every enslaved person in public space needed to have a master's past explaining why they were there, what they were doing there and how long they could be there.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Basic parameters of it.

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[SPEAKER_03]: This is a well-known thing.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It shows up in textbooks and things of that nature.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But what I saw kind of under-discuss was,

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[SPEAKER_03]: the idea that the person who might be asking and brigading and enslaved person about the past, were they doing so as a civilian or as law enforcement?

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[SPEAKER_03]: And that I think was kind of a new twist and thinking about whiteness here because

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[SPEAKER_03]: In theory, any white person could stop any person of color, even if they didn't know they were enslaved and say, what are you doing here where is your past?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Then the burden is on the person being asked the questions to prove that they are either not enslaved, or if they aren't slave that they're there for the right reasons.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So in my view,

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[SPEAKER_03]: thinking about today, things like stopping frisk and traffic stops and things of that nature, what's the difference really between the person asking about the past and the police officer today doing the stopping frisk?

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[SPEAKER_03]: And there are differences in that they're both subtle and obvious, but I think at the core they share,

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[SPEAKER_03]: the idea that the interrogator has a level of legal authority that they're drawing upon, which gives them a put some of the position to be able to do that.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So I was reinvisioning whiteness of the term, right?

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[SPEAKER_03]: And in a kind of literal sense, there are that any white person could be endowed with these police powers.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So that made them both

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[SPEAKER_03]: private people yes but also at moment they are kind of shot through with a sort legal authority.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So I mean that's one really powerful example.

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[SPEAKER_03]: More often even in the statutes you see in the laws themselves you see the language of able body white men.

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[SPEAKER_03]: being the people that should be deputized.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so that opens its own set of questions, right?

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[SPEAKER_03]: About what does Abel mean in that context, who counts as a man?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Does this mean that women and girls were exempted?

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[SPEAKER_03]: So I think there are ways to think about this more abstractly.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I was looking at it fairly concretely though, I think.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You just started to get at this, but it's not just that white men have a legal authority to be doing these things, but have a legal in some cases obligation to be policing, to be acting in certain ways, either as part of the patrol or are required to bring a gun to church in one instance.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, what does that look like?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Why are these communities putting not just authority but obligation onto the white man?

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[SPEAKER_03]: So the heart of the story I try to tell in the book is, is ultimately one of a failure about white power.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And the idea that white and slavers believe that they could themselves handle the threat of runaways first or a vandal second of ignorance.

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[SPEAKER_03]: all the way through the scale here to revels and insurrectionists as they called them.

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[SPEAKER_03]: This was the great myth that they told themselves that they the so-called superior race could could do this.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But the reality became very clear quite early that this was not the case, and in fact, they needed an government.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't just a private association of white men who were going to be able to control the enormous numbers of captive enslaved people

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so we end up with a dual idea, first this injunction, this obligation of white citizenship, right, to be armed, to be vigilant, and to be active.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But on the other hand, a kind of

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[SPEAKER_03]: We just can't depend on each other's vigilance and violence, right?

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[SPEAKER_03]: That's not enough.

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[SPEAKER_03]: There needs to be state institutions.

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[SPEAKER_03]: There has to be a constable.

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[SPEAKER_03]: There has to be a just as a piece, a slave patrol military detachment to control the problem.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So it's an interweave story that goes from the 1600s all the way through the Civil War.

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[SPEAKER_03]: about this white obligation on the one hand, but also this understanding that it simply isn't enough, and they need more force.

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[SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of to me the lesson of the enslaved or politics going from the 17th century through the 19th century is the demand from more force in greater places in a broader geography.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't just mean violence by that.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean the abilities to compel in different ways.

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[SPEAKER_03]: This is kind of a hard of it.

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[SPEAKER_03]: The question about why obligation also raises another aspect that it goes slightly underdeveloped in this project, but it's something now working on in the context of a book project about the Confederacy, the legal history of the Confederacy, which is,

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[SPEAKER_03]: that I believe strongly that slavery necessitated an alternate understanding of what constitutionalism was, and when to think about it now as being anchored in the idea of liberal rights, property rights, and other rights personal rights.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But I think that slavery necessitated a different understanding of the relationship between citizens and the state that was based around the concept of obligations owed to the state in exchange for freedom as opposed to rights owed to the citizen.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And in that sense, if you think about white vigilance and the duty to be vigilant, I think it fits that pattern of constitutional development very clearly.

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[SPEAKER_02]: leads to some intentions to where, you know, many of the southern states where people are enslaved want the federal government to stay out of their business until they need the help of the federal government for things like recovering fugitives and things like that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk some about that tension that keeps showing up?

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[SPEAKER_03]: The Southern and Slavers in particular, they're almost hyperfixation on having a state authority, both themselves as agents of the state, but also having didn't nearby the military as part of their.

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[SPEAKER_03]: the force available to them.

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[SPEAKER_03]: This has been to me the the single most overlooked thing that I saw the literature about about Southern flavors and to me this is for them probably a great victory in their ideology and the language and the rhetoric and the extraordinarily powerful megaphone that they had

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[SPEAKER_03]: in both in terms of their own time, but also looking into some of the more apologetic, pro-slavery accounts, historical accounts that comes through in the 20th century, the idea that enslavers were inherently anti-statist and that they were against government authority as much as I could be.

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[SPEAKER_03]: The reality of the situation was far from that, and I think they were extraordinarily opportunistic about their anti-statism,

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[SPEAKER_03]: But it was almost always accompanied by the opposite, which was a demand for state activities, but whether that's the federal government in terms of the fugitive slave things, but also thinking about the role of mixed-manchinist empire, right?

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[SPEAKER_03]: The role of a federal government in bringing new dominions into the republic for for insolvers to push both the slave trade and the cotton kingdom, so to speak.

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[SPEAKER_03]: that's seen the work of people like Matthew Carp or Walter Johnson.

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[SPEAKER_03]: To me, those are as much demands about state power as features of slave renditioning.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So, it is fascinating that we've as historians have tended to amplify and slavery's anti-status rhetoric around tax policy, while kind of thinking of these other areas of imperial expansion,

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[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I do think, you know, it's, it is hypocrisy.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Certainly, it wouldn't be the first time in American history that we've seen.

26:15.443 --> 26:30.672
[SPEAKER_03]: We've seen that certainly, I think today more of some very libertarian sounding demands on the state are, are end up being really statused, but in terms of redistribution or military force or things of that nature.

26:30.652 --> 26:38.444
[SPEAKER_03]: does fit that kind of pattern, but these were there's certainly not inherently anti-pasteists just because they were in slievers.

26:39.686 --> 26:51.765
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the reasons, of course, that they need this force and this policing is because enslaved people are not just

26:52.201 --> 26:57.099
[SPEAKER_02]: Rebell trying to weave the situation, trying to form an insurrection.

26:57.119 --> 27:00.009
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that look like over time?

27:00.110 --> 27:04.084
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it that these inslavers are responding to?

27:04.942 --> 27:23.220
[SPEAKER_03]: This is one of the great mysteries of the project, in that, you know, on the one hand, the literature that historians have developed on slave insurrections as the enslavers called of its insurrections were rebellions, which I think has carries a different connotation, right?

27:23.200 --> 27:34.995
[SPEAKER_03]: We have so much, and we know a great deal, and I opened the book with one of the great the stone or rebellion, one of the most kind of fantastic examples, but throughout the book reference, these very important events.

27:35.856 --> 27:43.926
[SPEAKER_03]: But what's fascinating was it only took the threat of an insurrection, even the possibility, the mere possibility of it,

27:43.906 --> 27:48.012
[SPEAKER_03]: to really kick this in slavery state into gear.

27:48.373 --> 27:53.921
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the question you asked me was what it looks like, the dynamic on the ground, right?

27:54.161 --> 28:07.081
[SPEAKER_03]: And the answer to that is that there were so many different dynamics, at times there were actual insurrections, there were certainly acts of rebellion that could have been grappulated into something deeper or bigger.

28:07.101 --> 28:09.745
[SPEAKER_03]: But in the enslavement, it didn't

28:09.725 --> 28:25.788
[SPEAKER_03]: It was very challenging for them to disambiguate these categories and they became prone to seeing minor acts of autonomy or rebellion survival even as being encoded as something greater.

28:25.808 --> 28:27.430
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it really does

28:27.410 --> 28:52.693
[SPEAKER_03]: to me confirm the framework that the historian Vincent Brown has offered and is remarkable book tackies rebellion thinking about this is a dynamic between the slavers and so-called rebels as a long-term period of warfare, rarely between, between warring parties, and especially for the enslavers, you know, they become they're deeply fascinated with these apocalyptic stories of slavery billions.

28:53.313 --> 28:57.417
[SPEAKER_03]: The Haitian rebellion captures the enslaver mind so deeply

28:57.397 --> 29:01.761
[SPEAKER_03]: that they're thinking about it, you know, on the eve of the Civil War, even as a possibility.

29:01.801 --> 29:15.552
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, at times, it could be a possible rebellion where, you know, you have at like stone, oh, a great example, marching in military formation and demanding freedom, demanding liberty.

29:15.793 --> 29:20.256
[SPEAKER_03]: And other times, it was just a rumor, perhaps, a fantastic rumor that catches fire.

29:20.297 --> 29:26.762
[SPEAKER_03]: And that really is the consequences of the enslavers believing that they were constantly under siege,

29:26.742 --> 29:30.326
[SPEAKER_03]: because they knew what they were doing was so horrible to human beings.

29:30.666 --> 29:36.733
[SPEAKER_03]: And the consequence of that was leaving in a world of fear, which drives the entire story.

29:37.894 --> 29:47.364
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, they kept doing things like expand places where they needed to allow and save people a certain amount of freedom of movement.

29:48.005 --> 29:55.973
[SPEAKER_02]: They relied on them to run errands and things where it meant that people had opportunities to escape

29:55.953 --> 30:09.495
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess that's not a question exactly, but if your goal is to keep people in a certain place, doing a certain thing, it seems contradictory to then allow for possibilities that you're then trying to please.

30:09.555 --> 30:16.746
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, the seemingly contradictory world of control versus

30:16.827 --> 30:27.242
[SPEAKER_03]: demanding labor of supposed captives that puts them in positions of autonomy or a relative or a greater economy than they might have on your immediate supervision.

30:28.023 --> 30:36.996
[SPEAKER_03]: This is one of the great push-and-pull issues that we see in looking at how and slavers are trying to manage their workforce.

30:37.330 --> 30:44.341
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this is as much a story about capitalism as anything else and political economy, both of those things.

30:44.361 --> 30:49.288
[SPEAKER_03]: So the world of in-slavery capitalism is not a simple one.

30:49.509 --> 30:52.533
[SPEAKER_03]: And it requires complicated labor arrangements.

30:52.874 --> 30:55.698
[SPEAKER_03]: It requires a expansive geography.

30:56.139 --> 31:02.308
[SPEAKER_03]: A really, really challenging calendar and timeline when it comes to

31:02.288 --> 31:13.727
[SPEAKER_03]: harvesting production, movement of goods, things like this, in which the enslaved people that are supposedly under the control are going to have to undertake acts over space and time.

31:14.068 --> 31:22.322
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it means they'll be exposed to possibilities of escape or other forms of rebellion or resistance.

31:22.302 --> 31:23.063
[SPEAKER_03]: on the one hand.

31:23.243 --> 31:36.117
[SPEAKER_03]: On the other, you know, these societies, particularly the southern colonies and states, become very quickly enamored with the possibility of extracting as much labor as possible from enslaved people.

31:36.638 --> 31:45.087
[SPEAKER_03]: And that occurs both on the plantation, so to speak, but also in the context of how colonies and states are getting stuff done for the public.

31:45.758 --> 32:04.513
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is one of the stories that we see coming through in the work of the historian Ryan Kintana, his book, Making a Slave State about South Carolina in his book, Colonial and Early State, where there's almost no work, public work project in South Carolina that will not use enslaved people.

32:04.754 --> 32:08.020
[SPEAKER_03]: And so here you're thinking about road construction,

32:08.000 --> 32:15.289
[SPEAKER_03]: the great example of public space, literally the construction of public space is using enslaved labor.

32:15.389 --> 32:20.035
[SPEAKER_03]: So clearly exposing then the possibility of escape or other things.

32:20.215 --> 32:27.204
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this was from the enslaved perspective and the states colonies and states, it's all about extracting as much labor as possible.

32:27.805 --> 32:32.691
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're willing to run the risk,

32:32.671 --> 32:39.239
[SPEAKER_03]: exposing themselves to the thing they feared most in order to maximize what was possible with that labor.

32:40.360 --> 33:01.986
[SPEAKER_02]: When we get to the civil war, it seems like perhaps creating the Confederate states and fighting the Union was not well thought out in terms of they're doing it to protect the institution of slavery and yet the very protections that they have been using, they can't

33:02.371 --> 33:10.587
[SPEAKER_02]: So how is that working during this full war it seems like there were still attempts to do this patrolling and policing?

33:10.627 --> 33:16.077
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, is obviously very difficult when your person power has stretched very thin.

33:17.457 --> 33:21.843
[SPEAKER_03]: The phrase that you used in referencing this was that it didn't seem all that well thought out.

33:22.264 --> 33:33.760
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that might be one of the greater understatements that I heard about this context here, because there really wasn't a plan up until there had to be one, and so this was a problem.

33:33.780 --> 33:42.132
[SPEAKER_03]: In the book, I tried to build this up as a historical problem, that they were well aware of the enslavers on the eve of the Civil War.

33:42.213 --> 33:44.299
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, they gone through this in the American Revolution.

33:44.339 --> 33:46.224
[SPEAKER_03]: They gone through it in the War of 1812.

33:46.284 --> 33:56.352
[SPEAKER_03]: They had seen exactly what happens when the so-called men white men of a certain age had to do other things.

33:56.853 --> 33:57.555
[SPEAKER_03]: And

33:57.535 --> 34:23.509
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, during the revolution and the war of 1812, it was fairly catastrophic in places like Virginia, coastal Virginia, where enslaved people saw that the traditional vigilance and violence and governing apparatus, policing apparatus, had disappeared and took matters in their own hands and cross lines, any lines, and in some cases became British citizens

34:23.489 --> 34:38.815
[SPEAKER_03]: So this was not a new problem, they knew all about it, and yet there seems to have been no real cognizance of what they were about to undertake, even though the knowledge is there, and it becomes apparent really quickly.

34:38.795 --> 34:44.651
[SPEAKER_03]: as the confederacy attempts to build a fighting force, you know.

34:44.691 --> 34:54.036
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the issues here was that at least at a cultural level, that the confederacy was built on a certain vision of manhood and masculinity, that was

34:54.016 --> 35:09.325
[SPEAKER_03]: Deeply connected with the lore of the southern man's martial abilities and the idea that a Confederate soldier was equivalent to an XML of northern soldiers because of their natural prowess.

35:09.305 --> 35:14.377
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think they believed a bit of that, quite a bit of that, at several levels.

35:14.797 --> 35:20.450
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the idea that maybe they wouldn't need every single white man to do this work.

35:20.651 --> 35:21.413
[SPEAKER_03]: That was one issue.

35:21.453 --> 35:26.925
[SPEAKER_03]: The other issue was this other myth that the Inslamers are telling themselves about the

35:26.905 --> 35:41.927
[SPEAKER_03]: the so-called loyal and slave person, the idea that the, you know, the slaves love them and they would not, they would, why would they run away, these stories are overblown by abolitionists trying to cause trouble, but the master slave relationship was a sacred one for them.

35:41.907 --> 35:53.588
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, they knew better, you know, they'd spent the better part of the 1850s crying about the future slave law, which was all about enslaved people, you know, seeking freedom and self emancipating.

35:53.749 --> 36:02.785
[SPEAKER_03]: And so these are two myths that were so clearly, you know, obvious and and should have been there should have been a more practical understanding of it, but

36:02.765 --> 36:15.035
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the nature of the Confederacy in a little way is is trying to indulge the very mythologies that they're then then extinguishing fires about or trying to on the ground.

36:15.095 --> 36:17.280
[SPEAKER_03]: So it ends up being

36:17.513 --> 36:22.962
[SPEAKER_03]: a catastrophic thing for the south in terms of the conscription and the confederacy.

36:23.002 --> 36:41.614
[SPEAKER_03]: You end up by the 1864 with very old men or people who have been turned away from military service, from medical reasons, young kids, women who are less accustomed to certainly accustomed to practicing violence on a plantation, yes.

36:41.594 --> 36:51.507
[SPEAKER_03]: but not necessarily, you know, kind of mass villager vigilance or public vigilance setting where, you know, violence and arms might be used more commonly.

36:51.527 --> 37:09.610
[SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, it was a disaster and they didn't take long, you know, wherever union troops showed up, you would see and say people, you know, running away is not even the right word because if it's just a matter

37:09.590 --> 37:16.123
[SPEAKER_03]: any real vigilance or policing barriers then, you know, it's self emancipation of the simpler level.

37:16.183 --> 37:31.294
[SPEAKER_03]: So that becomes the story and, you know, scholars, I think quite rightly point to the fact that the emancipation of proclamation accelerates a process that was already enforced by the time, by this time, Lincoln, others, those words.

37:31.915 --> 37:38.005
[SPEAKER_02]: This story, of course, should end with the end of the Civil War and the 13th Amendment, and it does not.

37:38.686 --> 37:46.698
[SPEAKER_02]: So, talked to me about what continues to happen why your book goes beyond that time period.

37:48.722 --> 37:59.138
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the big questions from me about reconstruction was just how it was possible for a military occupation to be underway.

37:59.270 --> 38:07.824
[SPEAKER_03]: for the radical Republicans in Congress to be passing incredible legislation and ratifying the reconstruction amendments.

38:08.485 --> 38:20.265
[SPEAKER_03]: So how is it possible that very moment of genesis really that new concept of American freedom for groups like the plan or the white lead to suddenly become so empowered?

38:20.245 --> 38:31.409
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that was my entry point into this issue and initially I had conceived of the discussing reconstruction as a kind of zippy apologue to the whole story.

38:32.210 --> 38:35.417
[SPEAKER_03]: But the more I got into it, I said, you know, gosh, it's the same.

38:35.618 --> 38:39.165
[SPEAKER_03]: First of all, the same people that were involved in,

38:39.145 --> 38:51.898
[SPEAKER_03]: this slave policing, you know, concept and institutions who are then in the Confederate military and then, you know, long behold happened at part of the plan or other such groups thereafter.

38:52.018 --> 38:59.205
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's really a great deal of continuity here between the Civil War and the immediate aftermath.

38:59.465 --> 39:08.494
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would argue a fair amount of continuity between that immediate aftermath of the Civil War

39:08.474 --> 39:10.357
[SPEAKER_03]: the beginning of the Jim Crow era.

39:11.218 --> 39:25.758
[SPEAKER_03]: So to me, yes, you can absolutely tell the things are changing rapidly, the idea of, you know, an emancipated population seeking political autonomy, seeking political office, and pressing rights claims into the 20th century.

39:25.798 --> 39:27.681
[SPEAKER_03]: That's all very new.

39:27.661 --> 39:44.987
[SPEAKER_03]: But it cogs this with this other story about the slow, painful, and bloody exploration of the older police in practice, which now after the reconstruction amendments move really into this shadowy world that's outside the law.

39:45.007 --> 39:55.423
[SPEAKER_03]: It's no longer a commission or a badge that is facilitating these acts,

39:55.403 --> 39:57.946
[SPEAKER_03]: a law, and it's not a law, but it's something like it.

39:58.467 --> 40:20.854
[SPEAKER_03]: And during reconstruction and in the 1870s in particular, you start to see these white paramilitary groups, I call them kind of quite plainly in the book, repeatedly invoked the language of white replacement, the idea of

40:20.834 --> 40:31.948
[SPEAKER_03]: as they put it, which was, you know, at the expense of white rights, any augmentation of the condition of black Americans, what came at the expense they believe of white freedom and liberty.

40:32.549 --> 40:41.340
[SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, I thought it was, it was pretty obvious to me that this was, this was the last chapter, really, of the policing story that had developed.

40:41.320 --> 40:51.156
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not implausible to think about a policing system that develops over two centuries, really, that it's going to take some time really to bring it down.

40:51.216 --> 40:56.865
[SPEAKER_03]: The reconstruction is famously referred to as the unfinished revolution in a lot of ways.

40:57.638 --> 41:05.086
[SPEAKER_03]: I think one of the things that goes on finish unfortunately is I said the exploration of the old mode of policing.

41:05.807 --> 41:12.794
[SPEAKER_03]: That might be over city and I think it doesn't quite get pushed out of its place entirely unfortunately.

41:12.814 --> 41:25.688
[SPEAKER_03]: It goes a bit underground and we do see, of course, the recurring language in the 20th century and even today now especially of the idea of white vigilance and justifications of white

41:27.018 --> 41:33.187
[SPEAKER_02]: Ask you for it in several amicus briefs and things for Supreme Court cases.

41:33.587 --> 41:47.828
[SPEAKER_02]: Could you talk a little bit about the role of historians in helping to inform the court when they're thinking about various really important cases that they're deciding?

41:48.567 --> 42:04.821
[SPEAKER_03]: The role of historians today, I think, is so vastly different than it was when I started as a undergraduate and as a grad student, you know, today the majority of historians in the United States at least.

42:04.801 --> 42:23.316
[SPEAKER_03]: don't teach in academic departments, their public historians, and they do remarkable work in places like museums, community centers, schools, secondary education, and I would certainly include podcasts and other other such public facing venues, right, is where this labor is occurring.

42:23.296 --> 42:39.415
[SPEAKER_03]: And in my view, it is in part for civic betterment, but also in the case of the Supreme Court cases, I do think the Supreme Court has put what they call history and tradition as the new standard of what Americans rights should be.

42:39.395 --> 42:52.213
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that I think, you know, they have, it is a Supreme Court that has made historians more relevant to their work, rather than historians deciding that they were going to go find a new playground, which is the Supreme Court.

42:52.233 --> 43:06.634
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, I've got involved in a few cases where to me, the claims about early American history, where I happen to know some of the things that we're trying

43:06.614 --> 43:34.917
[SPEAKER_03]: They were being referenced that I thought I had a place to sort of say actually the historian's famous injunction as well actually and in this case I think if it's pretty pretty neatly and so my approach has been as things with the current Supreme Court have gotten further into this history and tradition litmus test and he even writes have become the become on another topic of the dobs case and reproductive rights or other things.

43:34.897 --> 43:37.102
[SPEAKER_03]: to me, I think the historian's role is too fold.

43:37.282 --> 43:51.775
[SPEAKER_03]: So on the one hand, I think, you know, for the long term, there has to be a record of alternatives that future generations know that the Supreme Court's version of the past.

43:51.755 --> 43:53.739
[SPEAKER_03]: need not be the authoritative one.

43:53.999 --> 44:13.915
[SPEAKER_03]: It might be the one that one that decision, but that there were other people who knew, frankly, better about what what the past was and there should be a record that is accessible on a usable past for future generations of lawyers and historians and others who seek to reclaim human rights that may have been lost.

44:13.895 --> 44:21.205
[SPEAKER_03]: On the more direct level in the second register is that, you know, I view this when it comes to human rights being being on trial, really.

44:21.706 --> 44:23.648
[SPEAKER_03]: I view it like, like a house on fire.

44:24.069 --> 44:30.958
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, if you are a historian and you have that kind of knowledge, you may just have the bucket of water that makes a difference.

44:31.299 --> 44:37.447
[SPEAKER_03]: And so there's a chance that you're talking into the void and your Amika's brief will be ignored entirely.

44:37.487 --> 44:41.573
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm certain is the case in several that I've been a part of.

44:41.705 --> 44:45.312
[SPEAKER_03]: But you never know, if it ends up being that magic bucket of water.

44:45.352 --> 44:48.559
[SPEAKER_03]: So you may as well pry because the stakes are pretty high.

44:48.599 --> 44:51.524
[SPEAKER_02]: And a slightly more fun note.

44:51.665 --> 44:55.252
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand you're writing about the west wing one of my favorites.

44:55.793 --> 45:01.384
[SPEAKER_02]: So wonder if you could just give us a little preview of what that that research is about.

45:02.258 --> 45:22.090
[SPEAKER_03]: I started teaching class here at American University about the West Wing a couple of years back and I was students who actually bug me to do it because I was slipping in some West Wing references and to slides and things of that nature and a couple of them said you know a lot of kids are age love it and I say kids in a joking way.

45:22.070 --> 45:37.746
[SPEAKER_03]: but I was skeptical and then I said, you know, I'll try and they weren't kidding around because there is a great deal of interest among younger generations about the show, whether they watch it with their parents or their pandemic, or kind of got interested in it separately.

45:37.766 --> 45:47.335
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't really explain quite what it is that captivates people who are younger than I am about the show, but it's there and I got into it and I started

45:47.315 --> 45:56.043
[SPEAKER_03]: doing these lectures about it, I'm particularly interested about how the show was repackaging history lessons, essentially, for public consumption.

45:56.103 --> 45:58.285
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the show was a kind of teacher.

45:58.325 --> 46:11.837
[SPEAKER_03]: And decided, I would write it up and see what happened and I've written a book that thinks about the show as a vehicle for telling American history stories, both about the presidency and other things.

46:12.458 --> 46:17.322
[SPEAKER_03]: It's also, of course, a kind of cipher

46:17.302 --> 46:27.673
[SPEAKER_03]: the comparisons between, you know, Jed Bartlett, what President or President does, does your Jed Bartlett of Oak and getting into the senior staff and stuff like that.

46:27.753 --> 46:33.340
[SPEAKER_03]: So it is comparatively a lot of fun to the other research I've been doing in my life for quite a while.

46:33.880 --> 46:40.187
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm into it there, but you know, even there, I think there's a kind of more serious element to it, which is

46:40.167 --> 46:55.678
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a whole cottage industry about the West Wing, which is a heat industry, and people love to say, ah, the West Wing, ruin American politics, and, you know, it made us think about this fantasy, of a great past, and everything like that.

46:55.658 --> 47:05.172
[SPEAKER_03]: And I disagree so strongly that it became a kind of thing in the book to not necessarily redeem the show or say it was great trying to take a more critical look at it.

47:05.212 --> 47:14.146
[SPEAKER_03]: But you know, the idea that a TV show that not everyone watched really changed the entire landscape of American politics seems slightly outlandish on the one hand.

47:14.687 --> 47:19.574
[SPEAKER_03]: And on the other hand, if you actually watch the show, they lose more often than they wouldn't in the Bartlett administration.

47:19.614 --> 47:23.640
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was really a show about coping with.

47:23.620 --> 47:42.810
[SPEAKER_03]: with not getting your way and outside forces and the transformation of American conservatism which is a streak running through the show, a post 9-11 world in which whether you want to talk about things like health policy, you're going to have to talk about terrorism and national security front and center and military policy.

47:42.790 --> 47:50.299
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, there is a kind of contemporary salient instrument, much as I'd like to make it kind of more fun pop history.

47:50.339 --> 48:08.241
[SPEAKER_03]: There is a bit of a series I should as well, but yeah, it is, you know, I'm working on it, learning a lot about the generation because I was a kid in the 90s, so learning about the adult stuff going on through stuff and it is a very different endeavor than what I've been out to.

48:09.132 --> 48:12.464
[SPEAKER_02]: I look forward to seeing that one in the future and getting a chance to read it.

48:12.484 --> 48:18.526
[SPEAKER_02]: For now though, I want to encourage listeners to read your incredible book, White Power.

48:18.546 --> 48:21.336
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to tell them how they can get a copy.

48:22.143 --> 48:35.759
[SPEAKER_03]: So, white power policing American slavery is available for pre-order at pretty much anywhere you would buy your books, whether that is directly from the University of North Carolina press, or from sites such as Amazon.

48:35.819 --> 48:40.725
[SPEAKER_03]: If you put in the title, white power policing American slavery, you will get my book.

48:40.765 --> 48:46.872
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course, the title might lead you to some other titles, as well, which we like a bit less, but you'll find mine as well.

48:48.033 --> 48:50.496
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything else you wanted to make sure we talk about?

48:51.725 --> 48:52.266
[SPEAKER_03]: That's all.

48:52.306 --> 48:56.371
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just thrilled to be part of this amazing podcast that I love to listen to myself.

48:57.672 --> 49:00.115
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for speaking with me.

49:00.135 --> 49:13.412
[SPEAKER_02]: I really enjoyed the conversation and I think thinking about these topics has really expanded my view of the south and the

49:19.062 --> 49:34.506
[SPEAKER_01]: MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW, MINDOW,

49:47.817 --> 49:53.224
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to unsung history.

49:54.006 --> 49:57.991
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49:58.011 --> 50:03.499
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50:04.119 --> 50:10.208
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50:11.029 --> 50:15.495
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50:15.610 --> 50:17.960
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50:18.523 --> 50:25.192
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50:25.955 --> 50:29.912
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50:30.274 --> 50:30.615
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.