Jan. 12, 2026
Charles C. Diggs, Jr.
Charles C. Diggs, Jr., founder of the Congressional Black Caucus, spent 25 years in Congress, pushing for change, on issues from segregation in commercial aviation to home-rule for the residents of Washington, DC, to the anti-apartheid movement. His legislative accomplishments were overshadowed by his downfall, and today his story doesn’t receive the attention of other Civil Rights heroes. Joining me in this episode is Dr. Marion Orr, Frederick Lippitt Professor of Public Policy and Professor of Political Science at Brown University and author of House of Diggs: The Rise and Fall of America's Most Consequential Black Congressman, Charles C. Diggs Jr.
Our theme song is Frogs Legs Rag, composed by James Scott and performed by Kevin MacLeod, licensed under Creative Commons. The mid-audio is “Bad Luck Blues,” performed by Gertrude “Ma” Rainey in 1923; the performance is in the public domain. The episode image is an official Congressional photo of Charles Diggs, Jr., in the public domain and available via Wikimedia Commons.
Additional sources:
- “DIGGS, Charles Coles, Jr.,” Office of the Historian, United States House of Representatives.
- “Charles Diggs, 75, Congressman Censured Over Kickbacks,” by Irvin Molotsky, The New York Times, August 26, 1998.
- “Eyes on the Prize; Interview with Charles Coles Diggs Jr., 1985-11-06 [video],” Film and Media Archive, Washington University in St. Louis, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC.
- “Regional Council of Negro Leadership,” by Ten Ownby, Mississippi Encyclopedia.
- “Mound Bayou (1887- ),” by Herbert G. Ruffin II, BlackPast, January 18, 2007.
- “Emmett Till's Death Inspired a Movement,” Smithsonian’s National Museum of African American History & Culture.
- “About the CBC,” Congressional Black Caucus.
- “D.C. Home Rule,” Council of the District of Columbia.
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[SPEAKER_03]: This is Unsung History, the podcast where we discuss people and events in American history that haven't always received a lot of attention.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm your host, Kelly Theresa Pollock.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'll start each episode with a brief introduction to the topic and then talk to someone who knows a lot more than I do.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Charles Cole's digs junior was born on December 2nd, 1922 in Detroit.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The only child of Charles and Mimi digs.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Both of whom had moved north as part of the great migration.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The couple had opened a funeral home, the year before.
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[SPEAKER_03]: After Diggs' senior completed his training at the Eccles College of Mortuary Science in Philadelphia.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs' senior, who was respected figure in Black Detroit, became involved in politics in the 1930s.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And in 1936, he was elected to the Michigan State Senate.
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[SPEAKER_03]: the first Black Democrat to serve in Michigan legislature.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs Jr. and rolled at the University of Michigan in 1940, but transferred to Fisk University in Nashville in 1942, where he first experienced Jim Crow.
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[SPEAKER_03]: After he was drafted into the U.S. Army in February 1943, he experienced much more racial discrimination as he was stationed military bases in the south.
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[SPEAKER_03]: After his military service
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[SPEAKER_03]: Rather than completing his program at Fisk, he enrolled in the Marchewary Program at Wayne State University.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In August 1947, Diggs married Wannita Rosaria and employee at the funeral home.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And to October 1948, Charles C. Diggs III was born.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Later that year, Diggs Sr. began a prison sentence on bribery convictions, although he always maintained his innocence.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In 1950, Diggs Sr. once again won election to the Michigan State Senate, after a six-year hideous.
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[SPEAKER_03]: However, the Republican-dominated State Senate refused to seat him,
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[SPEAKER_03]: The victor in that special election was Diggs Junior, just 29 years old.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In 1954, Diggs Junior won election to the United States House of Representatives from the Michigan 13th District.
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[SPEAKER_03]: To do so, he had to beat both the incumbent Democrat, George D. O. Brian, and then his Republican opponent, Landon Knight, the son of John S. Knight, the editor and publisher of the Detroit Free Press.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Both O. Brian and Knight were white, and digs to feed
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[SPEAKER_03]: When Diggs took his place in Congress, he was one of only three black congressmen, all Democrats.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Just months after Diggs was sworn in for his first term, he was invited to give the keynote address for the annual meeting of the Regional Council of Negro Leadership in Mound by you, Mississippi.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Mount Bayou had been founded in 1887 by former slaves and was one of the few cities in the country, owned and governed by African Americans.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Although only around 1,300 people lived in Mount Bayou at the time, 10 times that number came out to hear a congressman dig speak, as he declared to the crowd,
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[SPEAKER_03]: quote, the time for segregation is running out in Mississippi.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Victory will ultimately be ours.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If we keep up the fight to make democracy live, we will get the justice espoused by Almighty God in the Constitution of the United States."
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[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs would return to Mississippi soon after to attend the trial for the two white men
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[SPEAKER_03]: accused of brutally murdering Emmett Till, a 14-year-old Black Chicago boy visiting family in the state.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Although the men were acquitted by an all-white jury, Diggs's presence both supported Till's mother and the Black witnesses, and also brought additional media attention to the case and to Black civil rights.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Much of Diggs's work in Congress was less public than the events in Mississippi.
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[SPEAKER_03]: His quiet but persistent campaigns in Congress.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and with sitting presidents helped to desegregate commercial air travel and forced the Department of Defense to take action against the discrimination that black service members and their families faced especially near military bases in the U.S. south and abroad.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In the late 1960s, digs brought together the growing number of black members of Congress into the Democracy Select Committee, DSC, an informal group that lacked a budget or a staff.
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[SPEAKER_03]: At the beginning of the 92nd Congress in January 1971, the 13 Black House members formalized
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[SPEAKER_03]: creating the Congressional Black Caucus with Diggs unanimously elected their chair.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In 1969, Diggs became chair of the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Africa.
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[SPEAKER_03]: While a member of the Subcommittee, Diggs had carefully studied the continent's issues and he went right to work as chair, holding hearings and traveling to the region.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was especially concerned with ending U.S. ties to South African governments that enforce segregation, and he pressured both the U.S. government and U.S. companies operating in South Africa for change.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs's work led to the formation of the advocacy organization Trans-Africa in 1977,
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[SPEAKER_03]: starting in January 1973.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs became chair of the committee on the District of Columbia, when she had served on for nearly a decade.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In the role he advocated for the city's autonomy, successfully bringing to the house floor, a bill authorizing personal self-government that allowed the city's residents to elect a mayor and a city council for the first time since 1874.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In the role, Diggs also helped establish the University of the District of Columbia.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In 1978, Diggs was indicted on charges that included taking kickbacks from Congressional employees.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He was convicted on 29 counts in October 1978, but re-elected to Congress the next month.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In July 1979, the House voted unanimously to censure Diggs, who was free on appeal.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Shortly before he entered prison in 1980, he resigned his house seat.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Although he was sentenced to three years in prison, he was released after seven months.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Charles C. Diggs Jr. died August 24, 1998, at age 75 in Washington, D.C.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He is buried next to his parents in Detroit Memorial Park, a cemetery founded by his father.
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[SPEAKER_03]: When other local cemeteries either refused to bury black people or segregated their burial plots, he was married four times and had six children, two sons and four daughters.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Joining me in this episode is Dr. Marion Orr, Frederick lipit professor of public policy and professor of political science at Brown University.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And to author of House of Diggs, the rise and fall of America's most consequential black congressman Charles C. Diggs Jr.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see, girl, Let's have fun, let's have fun.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's have fun, let's have fun.
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[UNKNOWN]: Let's have fun, let's have fun.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Marianne.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks so much for joining me today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you for having me on your show.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Looking forward to our discussion.
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[SPEAKER_03]: This was a terrific book.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm looking forward to speaking about it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I want to hear a little bit about what, first got you interested in writing this biography of Charles Tics Jr. Well, I'm a political scientist by training.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I study American politics.
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[SPEAKER_02]: By many years ago, when I was an undergraduate student at Savannah State College, Dr.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Historically Black College in the hometown where I was raised and grew up there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I had a professor at Savannah State, a political scientist, his name was Haines Walton.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Haines liked the T-shirt maker, Haines, his last name was Walton, and Professor Walton taught many of the political science courses at Savannah State.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was a brilliant political scientist by the way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Charles digs came up in many of the courses that Dr. Walton taught.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He came up in his course on American government when Professor Walton taught us about Congress digs came up because Charles digs was the founder of the congressional black caucus.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I remember Kelly that Dr. Walton taught a course on African politics and again, Diggs came up in that course because Charles Diggs was a leader in the American anti-partime movement.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I learned about Charles Diggs when I was about 18 years old as an undergraduate political science student and then I went on to get my PhD in political science Kelly and I learned
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then I discovered that there was no book on no biography on dates, and so I decided to take the plunge.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It took me 10 years to do the research and writing the House of Diggs.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What did that research look like?
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[SPEAKER_03]: What kind of sources were you able to find?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And could you talk some about your use of oral history as well?
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[SPEAKER_02]: But certainly, the research is based, I should say, largely on the papers of Congressman Dave.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs donated his congressional personal and business papers to Howard University.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and there's about a 750 boxes of material that Dave's left is a rich source of information and data about the Congressman, his work on Capitol Hill, his business, his family owned a funeral home, by the way, and the funeral home was called the House of Dix and hit the title of the book.
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[SPEAKER_02]: from the Congressman papers.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have archival data from all the presidential libraries under the presidents that Congressman did served under.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then, Kelly, you mentioned us, I had
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[SPEAKER_02]: one of the opportunity to interview about 30 individuals who actually knew the congressman, his family members, his colleagues on Capitol Hill, staff members, indeed neighbors who
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[SPEAKER_02]: data source that drives the book, lots of government data, also the congressman had lots of speeches on Capitol Hill, and then finally I was able to obtain congressman did's FDI file, and that was another rich source of information about his life.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I of course read and know a lot of American history and I'm especially interested in politics and I'd heard his name but I didn't know a whole lot about him before reading your book.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can you talk a little bit about why he isn't better known despite his effectiveness, all the things he was able to do while he was in Congress.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Congressman did serve on Capitol Hill from 1955 to 1980, some nearly 25 years, and many people may remember the name and heard the name because he really played a vital and important role, but they don't know how much about him as you indicated.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a couple of reasons for this,
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, when Diggs was in Congress, he served alongside for many of the years he was in Congress of a man named Adam Clayton Powell.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Adam Clayton Powell was a Congress member from Farla.
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[SPEAKER_02]: a black Congress member who arrived in Capitol Hill 10 years before Diggs.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And Powell was a very thumpoyant, Congress member, and he got the attention that is
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[SPEAKER_02]: doing the post were what to carry it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Just number one, he was overshadowed, I believe, by this very, uh, demonereing, congressman, out of clay and piled.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other reason I believe many people have forgotten about digs, is I believe his downfall had something to do about
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[SPEAKER_02]: his what some people call and told me his his enraiser from history.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He had a tremendous
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[SPEAKER_02]: downfall.
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[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I should tell your listeners that he eventually spent seven months in prison for payroll irregularities that he was convicted on.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let me guess at, digs unlike how was sort of unassuming soft spoken, kind of individual who can often get overlooked on Capitol Hill.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think those two features his downfall
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[SPEAKER_02]: Adam Clayton Powell.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can you talk to them about the legislative style that Diggs had?
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[SPEAKER_03]: You know, he was, as I mentioned, he was pretty effective.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There were a lot of things he was able to do.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So what, what was his approach to governing?
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[SPEAKER_02]: When digs to arrive in Congress in 1955, there are only two other black members of Congress.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that's three black members out of 435 House numbers.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And Diggs arrived in Congress.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He had to decide how he was going to approach the legislature.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And what he decided to do was to carve out what I call a politics of strategic moderation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let me just say this, the other two members of Congress, Black members of Congress, was a man named William Dawson.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Dawson was a Black Congress member from Chicago and he was very conservative, especially around racial issues.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Dawson came out of the Chicago machine and he was somewhat controlled by the machine in terms of what he could say and what he could do.
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[SPEAKER_02]: On the other hand, Adam Clayton Powell, whom I mentioned earlier, was outspoken and spoke out forcefully on racial issues.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was considered a black militant indeed a black radical.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What did this side it was in an effort to be effective in Congress in order to build coal issues that you really had to, you know, be strategic.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And his strategy was to chart out this sort of moderate approach.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let me be very clear what I mean by a politics of strategic moderation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs was a raceman from his heart.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was very forceful, or racer-wish-wish-wish-wish-wish-wish-wish- spoke out against discrimination, and he was a strong supporter of black civil rights.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So he wasn't a moderate in the sense of this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was a moderate in the sense of his strategy and trying to build a broad-based coalition in the Congress.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He understood that given the fact that blacks were a numerical minority, only about 12% of the population and a racial minority, it required if a teaser
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[SPEAKER_02]: coalitions and he wanted to build and believe that black Americans had to have support from across the political spectrum.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what he tried to do as a Congress person.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They tried to build these broad-based coalitions across ideological spectrums.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that was his approach and given the way our founding fathers established the Congress
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[SPEAKER_02]: this approach, I think, who much more effective than the power approach of militant radicalism and much more effective than Dawson's quiet ignorance or annoyance of Black racial issues.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so the founding fathers established the Congress to be an institution of
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[SPEAKER_02]: bargaining and compromise, and that's what Diggs was effected back and working in that institution to both bill coalitions and understanding when one had to compromise.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So it seems in reading your book that, you know, in some ways, Diggs, and partly because he was one of only a few black congressman, as you mentioned, that he, he almost had to be a congress member,
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[SPEAKER_03]: Mississippi of Washington, D.C. of the larger black population want to start with Mississippi.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can you talk some about his connections to Mississippi?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And then, you know, he has some really important moments, especially sort of early in the civil rights movement, where he's in Mississippi, where he's fighting for the people of Mississippi.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Dick spent a lot of time early on in his career,
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[SPEAKER_02]: He was thrown especially to Mississippi because it's his ancestral home.
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[SPEAKER_02]: His father, his father, Charles Dick's senior, was a part of the Great Migration.
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[SPEAKER_02]: His mother, Manny, Dick's came from Tennessee and so a Dick's ancestral home was indeed Mississippi.
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[SPEAKER_02]: When the first things that he did was to go down to Mississippi in the summer of 1955, to observe the trial of the two white men who had murdered in it till.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Your listeners may recognize in the Till's name, in the Till was the 14-year-old black-to-carboboy who was lynched in Mississippi in the summer of 1955.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so, it did first national exposure, if you will, or was his attending the trial of these two white men.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I say this in the book,
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[SPEAKER_02]: out repeated here is that did was had a major impact on the trial while he was there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think an impact has been overlooked by many.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number one did his presence and he was actually in the courtroom during the five days of the trial.
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[SPEAKER_02]: His presence in the courtroom gave assurance and encouragement to the black witnesses who came forward to testify against the two white men.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was Kelly and your listeners are dangerous than in 1955 for black men and women to accuse a white person of a crime.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so these black witnesses who came forward in Mississippi, they were, they told reporters
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[SPEAKER_02]: in the courtroom, seeing a powerful black man from the federal government in the courtroom during the trial gave them the courage to testify at the trial.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So he had a big impact on the black witnesses that came forward.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The other impact he had at the trial is that Dave's presence
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[SPEAKER_02]: government official at the trial his presence drew additional media attention to the trial and moreover to the broader issue of civil rights in in in the south.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the media was just
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[SPEAKER_02]: curious about this new black member of Congress, and again, he just, he just arrived in January of 55.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The trial is taking place in us and late August, early September of 1955.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's sort of reporters are curious about this new black Congressman.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What is it that would draw in this person, you know, from Detroit to Mississippi to jerk the trial?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then finally,
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[SPEAKER_02]: is what you said early in your question to me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs presents at the trial of the two white men who murdered Emmett Till was really sending a single to America about what kind of Congress member he planned to be and what he was saying.
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[SPEAKER_02]: By being down in Mississippi, he was saying to America that although I was elected from the 13th congressional district of Michigan, and although I planned to represent that district, he was saying he also planned to be a Congress member for all a black America.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if you look at his career, you see he did just that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: for all a black America doing his period in Congress.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And of course, another segment of black America that was and still is unrepresented in Congress is the population of Washington DC.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I've been really interested in the more current movement for statehood, but I don't think I realized how far back
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[SPEAKER_03]: He talks about what he was able to do in the House Committee that, of course, we didn't get all the way to statehood in DC, but he was able to really have a big impact on the ability of DC residents to have some control, at least, in the way their city was governed.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Washington DC is a unique kind of city.
26:54.580 --> 26:59.504
[SPEAKER_02]: in that it is the seat of the federal government.
27:00.365 --> 27:09.133
[SPEAKER_02]: And so Washington D.C. was carved out of portions of Maryland and portions of Virginia.
27:09.974 --> 27:24.587
[SPEAKER_02]: And our constitution, the United States constitution, Kelly gives Congress exclusive control over the federal district, Washington D.C., and many people don't know this,
27:24.567 --> 27:32.245
[SPEAKER_02]: for the beginning of BC's history, Congress given that it had control over the district.
27:32.787 --> 27:36.315
[SPEAKER_02]: Congress allowed local...
27:37.578 --> 27:42.866
[SPEAKER_02]: officials to run Washington DC for decades indeed.
27:43.647 --> 28:05.037
[SPEAKER_02]: Until after the Civil War, when more and more Black people moved to Washington DC, Black people now have to write the vote after at least Black men do after the Civil War, and so Black began to have political power shortly
28:05.219 --> 28:17.039
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Congress decides that it would remove home rule and no longer allow local officials to run Washington DC.
28:17.239 --> 28:31.463
[SPEAKER_02]: So for a hundred years following reconstruction until around 1973, the president of the United States appointed the mayor and other top officials in Washington DC.
28:31.443 --> 28:45.958
[SPEAKER_02]: to make the long story short, though the members of Congress simply did not want black people to have governing authority over over Washington D.C.
28:46.023 --> 29:07.693
[SPEAKER_02]: what happened is that in 1973, Dex became chair of the committee that had jurisdiction over Washington D.C. and he was able to push through the Congress, a bill that is now called the
29:07.673 --> 29:17.549
[SPEAKER_02]: Congress now allows DC residents to vote for its mayor, city council members, and other public officials.
29:17.850 --> 29:27.285
[SPEAKER_02]: So for 100 years, there was this real push for home rule, as it's now called, and did's was able to put
29:28.109 --> 29:44.065
[SPEAKER_02]: through a compromised bill, let me get say that that allow for the kind of home rule we have today that as you indicate it, Kelly, at least apply it's currently being scrutinized heavily by the Trump administration.
29:44.605 --> 29:57.778
[SPEAKER_02]: So Charles Dick's junior is indeed the father of home rule in Washington DC and we can
29:58.062 --> 30:06.351
[SPEAKER_02]: Bowman dares like Mary and Barry to the work and effort of Charles Dates and pushing through the home room bill through Congress.
30:07.833 --> 30:17.472
[SPEAKER_03]: And if I am remembering your book correctly, Diggs was actually interested in there being a DC statehood as well, but of course, we have not gotten there.
30:18.554 --> 30:23.684
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Charles Diggs was a strategic and skill legislator.
30:24.285 --> 30:28.153
[SPEAKER_02]: And he understood that in 1973,
30:28.876 --> 30:36.668
[SPEAKER_02]: that you were not going to get through the Congress, or Bill that would grant Washington DC Statehood.
30:37.188 --> 30:51.930
[SPEAKER_02]: He supported Statehood and supported Statehood movement, but he understood that Richard Nixon, who was present at the time, a Republican president, was not going to sign a bill.
30:51.910 --> 31:02.441
[SPEAKER_02]: that would grant Washington D.C. statehood and potentially allow two democratic senators to come into the Congress.
31:03.202 --> 31:19.318
[SPEAKER_02]: And hence to compromise, hence days had to, you know, he understood that he had to grab something and the best thing D.C. has ever had right now is the current home rule
31:19.906 --> 31:24.794
[SPEAKER_02]: Today, probably would not get through the Congress.
31:25.155 --> 31:35.012
[SPEAKER_02]: If a home rule bill came through today, I suspect it would be a challenge for digs or anyone else to get it through the Congress.
31:35.161 --> 31:35.982
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
31:36.002 --> 31:42.534
[SPEAKER_03]: So you mentioned earlier digs interest in Africa and his his work there.
31:42.694 --> 31:50.107
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you expand some on that and you know how he got the the name Mr. Africa, the the work he was able to do.
31:50.688 --> 31:57.760
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, I there are three chapters in the book about Africa because Charles digs
31:59.056 --> 32:08.790
[SPEAKER_02]: became the first American legislator to take a genuine and have a genuine interest in Africa.
32:09.631 --> 32:17.862
[SPEAKER_02]: No other, no other congressman had ever taken African policy so seriously as congressman did.
32:18.744 --> 32:28.978
[SPEAKER_02]: In 1959, Diggs became the first black American to sit on the House Foreign Affairs
32:29.212 --> 32:58.223
[SPEAKER_02]: from his position on that committee, and 10 years later, in 1969, when it became chair of the Africa subcommittee of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, he began to talk about apartheid.
32:59.114 --> 33:07.909
[SPEAKER_02]: This was talking about apartheid in the 1950s before many Americans knew what apartheid was all about.
33:08.041 --> 33:19.536
[SPEAKER_02]: And so Kelly and your listeners, the American anti-apartheid movement literally started in Dick's congressional office.
33:20.257 --> 33:35.196
[SPEAKER_02]: He became the member of Congress who everybody looked for, for ideas and strategies and policy around Africa, and he would work really hard.
33:36.020 --> 33:47.555
[SPEAKER_02]: as chair of the Africa subcommittee to awaken America to the racist system of apartheid that was happening in South Africa.
33:47.835 --> 34:00.492
[SPEAKER_02]: And he digs was really going against the grain of American
34:00.725 --> 34:08.955
[SPEAKER_02]: because our nation, our government, was closely allied with the South African regime.
34:10.437 --> 34:27.357
[SPEAKER_02]: And this had to work hard to break the bond between our nation and the South African regime.
34:27.337 --> 34:33.564
[SPEAKER_02]: Our nation view South Africa as a strategic ally in the Cold War.
34:34.245 --> 34:47.541
[SPEAKER_02]: And so while Diggs was trying to break the bond between our nation and South Africa, you have democratic and republican presidents trying to keep the bond in place.
34:48.021 --> 34:55.690
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I argue in the book that Diggs worked in South Africa.
34:56.075 --> 35:17.897
[SPEAKER_02]: was perhaps his greatest challenge and indeed his greatest accomplishment as you and your listless probably know in 1994 Nelson Mandela was elected the first black African to
35:18.974 --> 35:38.164
[SPEAKER_02]: In summer of 1990, he noted that it was the work of the Black members of Congress led by Charlie Diggs, that freed him from prison, that freed Mandela from prison, and brought down the racist regime in South Africa.
35:39.190 --> 35:42.915
[SPEAKER_03]: I mentioned that Doug started the congressional black caucus.
35:43.095 --> 35:46.700
[SPEAKER_03]: I think this is probably a caucus that a lot of people have heard of.
35:46.740 --> 35:49.845
[SPEAKER_03]: It's of course much bigger now, much more influential.
35:50.205 --> 35:58.296
[SPEAKER_03]: Could you talk a little bit about how it started why some of the black members of Congress didn't actually want to form a caucus originally?
35:59.373 --> 36:14.344
[SPEAKER_02]: When Diggs arrived in Congress in January of 1955, as I said earlier, there were only two other black members of Congress, and claimed power to black radical, and Bill Dawson to black conservative.
36:14.364 --> 36:17.991
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs discovered that the two men did not talk to one another.
36:18.011 --> 36:20.436
[SPEAKER_02]: They didn't get along with the one another.
36:20.753 --> 36:28.167
[SPEAKER_02]: And I believe walking into this situation digs at a sense it just wasn't really good for black America.
36:28.527 --> 36:33.977
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe he understood right away that the three of them ought to be working together somehow.
36:34.739 --> 36:38.205
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, in 1968,
36:38.185 --> 36:43.372
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs would take up the idea of forming a caucus.
36:43.933 --> 36:59.215
[SPEAKER_02]: That is to bring together at the time the 13 black members of Congress, many of whom represent at similar districts, all of whom would Democrats, and all of whom had
36:59.583 --> 37:03.455
[SPEAKER_02]: challenges back home in the districts that overlap.
37:04.037 --> 37:10.478
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this believed that the Black members of Congress should sort of coalesce and come together.
37:10.658 --> 37:11.601
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what he did.
37:12.509 --> 37:23.164
[SPEAKER_02]: was to, first of all, they met informally, before they really formed the congressional black caucus, they met informally in Diggs office to discuss policy and these kinds of things.
37:23.524 --> 37:31.615
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in 1968, when the number of blacks reached a 13, Diggs would formalize the group.
37:31.679 --> 37:37.704
[SPEAKER_02]: into an organization that he called the Democrat Select Committee.
37:38.705 --> 37:45.771
[SPEAKER_02]: So the Democratic Select Committee was formed in 1969 and Diggs was its leader.
37:46.592 --> 38:01.264
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in 1971, the Democratic Select Committee, which aims its name to the congressional
38:01.244 --> 38:04.949
[SPEAKER_02]: the caucus principle, a spokesperson and leader.
38:05.389 --> 38:12.138
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, days would become the first tear person of the congressional black caucus.
38:12.519 --> 38:21.210
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the first things that they did was to a boycott Richard Nixon's 1971 state of the Union speech.
38:21.831 --> 38:28.500
[SPEAKER_02]: And that would eventually lead
38:28.480 --> 38:38.012
[SPEAKER_02]: between Richard Nixon and the president of the United States and the 13 members of this new caucus, the Congressional Black Caucus.
38:38.272 --> 38:44.119
[SPEAKER_02]: And today, the caucus now have, I believe, 62 members.
38:44.960 --> 38:50.387
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's one of the most powerful political organizations I believe you could argue in the country.
38:51.295 --> 38:56.000
[SPEAKER_03]: We've been talking about a wonderful, effective things that digs did.
38:56.020 --> 39:00.525
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we need to mention his downfall, as you mentioned.
39:00.846 --> 39:11.778
[SPEAKER_03]: So can you talk a little bit about the scandal that digs found himself in how a little bit about how it came about and the end result for him?
39:13.140 --> 39:15.362
[SPEAKER_02]: Charles digs for it.
39:16.017 --> 39:21.874
[SPEAKER_02]: Many, many years had difficulty managing his personal finances.
39:22.416 --> 39:29.436
[SPEAKER_02]: Difficulty on wilderness, I don't know how to describe it, but he was a guy who always would overspin.
39:29.872 --> 39:40.389
[SPEAKER_02]: And this was something that started early on when he was in his early 20s working for his father at the family owned dinner home, the house of Dick's funeral home.
39:41.151 --> 39:44.636
[SPEAKER_02]: He had a salary as a young man working for his father.
39:45.277 --> 39:51.448
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm told the interviews that Dick's was spent as salary and come to his father for extra money.
39:51.808 --> 39:54.192
[SPEAKER_02]: And his dad was said, come on now.
39:54.172 --> 39:55.815
[SPEAKER_02]: Spin your money wisely.
39:55.856 --> 39:58.000
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not giving any more money.
39:58.401 --> 40:13.092
[SPEAKER_02]: So he had a pension for for over spending and He had a tendency of relying on the house of digs funeral home to finance his over spending
40:13.578 --> 40:23.068
[SPEAKER_02]: So he would come to the funeral home because he's like the owner of it and he would sort of get the cash he need to pay his personal finances.
40:23.709 --> 40:37.064
[SPEAKER_02]: The funeral home would eventually collapse in the early 70s, the House of Diggs, which was a very prominent business enterprise for about 30 years would eventually collapse.
40:37.084 --> 40:40.227
[SPEAKER_02]: And I discussed this in the book, I won't go into it now.
40:40.561 --> 40:47.150
[SPEAKER_02]: and hits, digs did not have the source of additional income coming in.
40:48.672 --> 40:54.881
[SPEAKER_02]: Now let me say this, this is not an excuse for what digs eventually was convicted of.
40:54.981 --> 41:00.169
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just trying to explain to you and your listeners what happened to Congressman digs.
41:00.629 --> 41:08.340
[SPEAKER_02]: So without the funeral home, he did not have this sort of cash he could get his hands on.
41:08.422 --> 41:15.550
[SPEAKER_02]: given his prominence and Congress, chair of a subcommittee, a chair of a full committee.
41:15.570 --> 41:19.113
[SPEAKER_02]: He became chair of the DC committee as I indicated.
41:19.674 --> 41:21.956
[SPEAKER_02]: He had access to resources.
41:22.337 --> 41:23.078
[SPEAKER_02]: And here's what he did.
41:24.659 --> 41:36.572
[SPEAKER_02]: He gave his secretary a salary raise, an increase in her salary, and the increased salary was given back to Congressman Diggs.
41:37.058 --> 41:39.840
[SPEAKER_02]: is called a payroll kickback scheme.
41:40.901 --> 41:46.606
[SPEAKER_02]: I give you an increase in your salary, but you give that salary increase back to me as the boss.
41:47.067 --> 41:56.034
[SPEAKER_02]: And Diggs did this for about two and a half years with his secretary, and he used those funds to pay his personal bills.
41:56.715 --> 42:06.103
[SPEAKER_02]: The woman with whom he was doing this scheme were eventually resigned, so the payroll schemes sort of
42:06.269 --> 42:23.287
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs would hire a successor, a person to replace this woman, and this person would discover in Diggs' personnel files, the payroll kickback scheme.
42:24.168 --> 42:35.820
[SPEAKER_02]: I won't reveal this person to your listeners, here they have to get the book to get it,
42:35.952 --> 43:04.120
[SPEAKER_02]: that he had been involved in this payroll kickback scheme and picked up the phone and called the Justice Department and gave them a tip about what days had been involved in and this person asked the Justice Department for this person to remain anonymous, not to reveal the name.
43:04.252 --> 43:15.908
[SPEAKER_02]: of the confidential informer who told the justice department about bitch payroll kickback skin.
43:16.889 --> 43:18.812
[SPEAKER_02]: This would eventually kill me.
43:19.513 --> 43:22.377
[SPEAKER_02]: Go on, become undid it.
43:23.639 --> 43:33.432
[SPEAKER_02]: You will go on the trial and be convicted by your nanomiss jury of 11 black Americans and
43:33.968 --> 43:39.398
[SPEAKER_02]: convicted him on all counts in the payroll kickback scheme.
43:40.460 --> 43:50.598
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs would eventually be censored by the Congress, which is the most severe punishment short-up of folks in.
43:52.642 --> 43:55.808
[SPEAKER_02]: And he would eventually spend seven months.
43:56.159 --> 43:59.705
[SPEAKER_02]: and federal prison for the payroll kickback scheme.
43:59.745 --> 44:06.135
[SPEAKER_02]: He had to resign after he's been censored and then he went to prison for seven months.
44:06.636 --> 44:09.460
[SPEAKER_02]: He would come out of prison in 1981.
44:10.222 --> 44:12.345
[SPEAKER_02]: And he would live.
44:14.114 --> 44:16.557
[SPEAKER_02]: out of the stroke, August of 1998.
44:16.857 --> 44:21.403
[SPEAKER_02]: So he lived about 18 years after serving in Congress.
44:21.683 --> 44:30.354
[SPEAKER_02]: He lived after Congress in and around Washington DC and Prince George's county got involved in local politics and Prince George's county.
44:31.135 --> 44:34.580
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I said, died of a stroke in August of 1998.
44:35.901 --> 44:39.666
[SPEAKER_02]: And was buried next to his mom and dad in Detroit.
44:40.625 --> 44:49.167
[SPEAKER_03]: There is, of course, much more in this book, as you know, things like the identity of the informant, can you tell listeners how they can get a copy of the book?
44:50.041 --> 44:54.507
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, your listeners can purchase this book through amazon.com.
44:55.068 --> 45:00.256
[SPEAKER_02]: You can go online to university of North Carolina Press.org.
45:00.276 --> 45:02.539
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the publisher of the book.
45:02.559 --> 45:06.124
[SPEAKER_02]: And the book is available in some local book stores.
45:06.625 --> 45:10.210
[SPEAKER_02]: Go to my website, marryinor.com.
45:10.250 --> 45:14.276
[SPEAKER_02]: You can learn more about me and learn how to purchase the book also.
45:14.737 --> 45:15.057
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
45:15.578 --> 45:18.242
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that anything else you wanted to make sure we talk about?
45:19.083 --> 45:28.834
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I want to underscore this one point, is this to say that you mentioned that digs are sort of not well known and would have you.
45:29.094 --> 45:37.744
[SPEAKER_02]: My tip is to end with this book is to present or restore it up and correct up sort of history of this gentleman.
45:38.525 --> 45:44.331
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to just say that to your listeners, that Congressman digs
45:44.395 --> 45:48.620
[SPEAKER_02]: should not be known solely by his downfall.
45:49.641 --> 45:55.829
[SPEAKER_02]: And the payroll kickbacks gained that sent him to prison and really undermine his career.
45:56.750 --> 46:05.020
[SPEAKER_02]: Dicks should, for another hand, be known for and recognize for his tremendous contributions.
46:06.422 --> 46:14.031
[SPEAKER_02]: That despite what happened to him,
46:14.433 --> 46:27.407
[SPEAKER_02]: He loved this country, and he really wanted this country to stand up and be true to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
46:27.427 --> 46:36.998
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, my book, The House of Dances, is really an attempt to present to the readers ofography of a wonderful American.
46:36.978 --> 46:40.783
[SPEAKER_02]: that many of us should know more about because of his work.
46:41.184 --> 46:51.879
[SPEAKER_02]: These was a freedom fighter on two continents in North America, here in the US, and a freedom fighter in Africa.
46:53.100 --> 46:54.122
[SPEAKER_03]: Mary, thank you so much.
46:54.202 --> 46:56.265
[SPEAKER_03]: This was an incredible read.
46:56.285 --> 47:00.671
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so glad to have learned more about it, and it was a pleasure to speak with you.
47:01.131 --> 47:01.812
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you.
47:01.872 --> 47:05.297
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again for your interest, and thank you for your listeners out there.
47:07.808 --> 47:36.364
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom
47:36.563 --> 47:59.348
[SPEAKER_01]: In Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanual
48:01.201 --> 48:03.163
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to UnSung History.
48:03.944 --> 48:07.469
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48:07.949 --> 48:13.436
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48:14.057 --> 48:20.144
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48:20.965 --> 48:27.293
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48:32.007 --> 48:34.520
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48:39.645 --> 48:39.966
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00:00.031 --> 00:08.820
[SPEAKER_03]: This is Unsung History, the podcast where we discuss people and events in American history that haven't always received a lot of attention.
00:09.720 --> 00:12.543
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm your host, Kelly Theresa Pollock.
00:12.563 --> 00:19.430
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll start each episode with a brief introduction to the topic and then talk to someone who knows a lot more than I do.
00:20.591 --> 00:27.658
[SPEAKER_03]: Be sure to subscribe to Unsung History on your favorite podcasting app so you never
00:27.638 --> 00:32.846
[SPEAKER_03]: Tell your friends, family, neighbors, colleagues, maybe even strangers to listen to.
00:37.632 --> 00:45.484
[SPEAKER_03]: Charles Cole's digs junior was born on December 2nd, 1922 in Detroit.
00:46.405 --> 00:49.550
[SPEAKER_03]: The only child of Charles and Mimi digs.
00:50.571 --> 00:54.557
[SPEAKER_03]: Both of whom had moved north as part of the great migration.
00:55.955 --> 00:59.641
[SPEAKER_03]: The couple had opened a funeral home, the year before.
00:59.681 --> 01:07.713
[SPEAKER_03]: After Diggs' senior completed his training at the Eccles College of Mortuary Science in Philadelphia.
01:07.753 --> 01:17.208
[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs' senior, who was respected figure in Black Detroit, became involved in politics in the 1930s.
01:18.951 --> 01:23.818
[SPEAKER_03]: And in 1936, he was elected to the Michigan State Senate.
01:24.507 --> 01:29.173
[SPEAKER_03]: the first Black Democrat to serve in Michigan legislature.
01:29.233 --> 01:46.313
[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs Jr. and rolled at the University of Michigan in 1940, but transferred to Fisk University in Nashville in 1942, where he first experienced Jim Crow.
01:47.812 --> 02:00.889
[SPEAKER_03]: After he was drafted into the U.S. Army in February 1943, he experienced much more racial discrimination as he was stationed military bases in the south.
02:02.391 --> 02:12.604
[SPEAKER_03]: After his military service
02:14.052 --> 02:21.404
[SPEAKER_03]: Rather than completing his program at Fisk, he enrolled in the Marchewary Program at Wayne State University.
02:21.424 --> 02:30.780
[SPEAKER_03]: In August 1947, Diggs married Wannita Rosaria and employee at the funeral home.
02:32.022 --> 02:38.052
[SPEAKER_03]: And to October 1948, Charles C. Diggs III was born.
02:39.365 --> 02:48.955
[SPEAKER_03]: Later that year, Diggs Sr. began a prison sentence on bribery convictions, although he always maintained his innocence.
02:50.737 --> 02:58.545
[SPEAKER_03]: In 1950, Diggs Sr. once again won election to the Michigan State Senate, after a six-year hideous.
02:59.886 --> 03:08.815
[SPEAKER_03]: However, the Republican-dominated State Senate refused to seat him,
03:09.790 --> 03:16.043
[SPEAKER_03]: The victor in that special election was Diggs Junior, just 29 years old.
03:17.365 --> 03:26.584
[SPEAKER_03]: In 1954, Diggs Junior won election to the United States House of Representatives from the Michigan 13th District.
03:28.032 --> 03:44.389
[SPEAKER_03]: To do so, he had to beat both the incumbent Democrat, George D. O. Brian, and then his Republican opponent, Landon Knight, the son of John S. Knight, the editor and publisher of the Detroit Free Press.
03:45.971 --> 03:55.761
[SPEAKER_03]: Both O. Brian and Knight were white, and digs to feed
03:57.192 --> 04:04.906
[SPEAKER_03]: When Diggs took his place in Congress, he was one of only three black congressmen, all Democrats.
04:06.428 --> 04:20.533
[SPEAKER_03]: Just months after Diggs was sworn in for his first term, he was invited to give the keynote address for the annual meeting of the Regional Council of Negro Leadership in Mound by you, Mississippi.
04:21.998 --> 04:34.134
[SPEAKER_03]: Mount Bayou had been founded in 1887 by former slaves and was one of the few cities in the country, owned and governed by African Americans.
04:35.696 --> 04:47.972
[SPEAKER_03]: Although only around 1,300 people lived in Mount Bayou at the time, 10 times that number came out to hear a congressman dig speak, as he declared to the crowd,
04:48.762 --> 04:53.929
[SPEAKER_03]: quote, the time for segregation is running out in Mississippi.
04:54.910 --> 04:57.353
[SPEAKER_03]: Victory will ultimately be ours.
04:58.454 --> 05:09.008
[SPEAKER_03]: If we keep up the fight to make democracy live, we will get the justice espoused by Almighty God in the Constitution of the United States."
05:10.029 --> 05:18.280
[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs would return to Mississippi soon after to attend the trial for the two white men
05:18.715 --> 05:28.409
[SPEAKER_03]: accused of brutally murdering Emmett Till, a 14-year-old Black Chicago boy visiting family in the state.
05:30.211 --> 05:45.212
[SPEAKER_03]: Although the men were acquitted by an all-white jury, Diggs's presence both supported Till's mother and the Black witnesses, and also brought additional media attention to the case and to Black civil rights.
05:46.677 --> 05:52.358
[SPEAKER_03]: Much of Diggs's work in Congress was less public than the events in Mississippi.
05:52.398 --> 05:57.075
[SPEAKER_03]: His quiet but persistent campaigns in Congress.
05:57.494 --> 06:17.747
[SPEAKER_03]: and with sitting presidents helped to desegregate commercial air travel and forced the Department of Defense to take action against the discrimination that black service members and their families faced especially near military bases in the U.S. south and abroad.
06:19.263 --> 06:35.180
[SPEAKER_03]: In the late 1960s, digs brought together the growing number of black members of Congress into the Democracy Select Committee, DSC, an informal group that lacked a budget or a staff.
06:36.681 --> 06:46.992
[SPEAKER_03]: At the beginning of the 92nd Congress in January 1971, the 13 Black House members formalized
06:48.136 --> 06:54.646
[SPEAKER_03]: creating the Congressional Black Caucus with Diggs unanimously elected their chair.
06:54.666 --> 07:02.938
[SPEAKER_03]: In 1969, Diggs became chair of the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Africa.
07:04.560 --> 07:16.658
[SPEAKER_03]: While a member of the Subcommittee, Diggs had carefully studied the continent's issues and he went right to work as chair, holding hearings and traveling to the region.
07:17.684 --> 07:34.138
[SPEAKER_03]: He was especially concerned with ending U.S. ties to South African governments that enforce segregation, and he pressured both the U.S. government and U.S. companies operating in South Africa for change.
07:35.480 --> 07:47.370
[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs's work led to the formation of the advocacy organization Trans-Africa in 1977,
07:48.683 --> 07:50.608
[SPEAKER_03]: starting in January 1973.
07:51.430 --> 07:59.250
[SPEAKER_03]: Diggs became chair of the committee on the District of Columbia, when she had served on for nearly a decade.
08:00.918 --> 08:18.401
[SPEAKER_03]: In the role he advocated for the city's autonomy, successfully bringing to the house floor, a bill authorizing personal self-government that allowed the city's residents to elect a mayor and a city council for the first time since 1874.
08:18.661 --> 08:26.672
[SPEAKER_03]: In the role, Diggs also helped establish the University of the District of Columbia.
08:28.492 --> 08:36.100
[SPEAKER_03]: In 1978, Diggs was indicted on charges that included taking kickbacks from Congressional employees.
08:37.261 --> 08:45.350
[SPEAKER_03]: He was convicted on 29 counts in October 1978, but re-elected to Congress the next month.
08:46.812 --> 08:55.461
[SPEAKER_03]: In July 1979, the House voted unanimously to censure Diggs, who was free on appeal.
08:56.875 --> 09:02.241
[SPEAKER_03]: Shortly before he entered prison in 1980, he resigned his house seat.
09:03.802 --> 09:08.968
[SPEAKER_03]: Although he was sentenced to three years in prison, he was released after seven months.
09:10.750 --> 09:20.740
[SPEAKER_03]: Charles C. Diggs Jr. died August 24, 1998, at age 75 in Washington, D.C.
09:22.019 --> 09:29.893
[SPEAKER_03]: He is buried next to his parents in Detroit Memorial Park, a cemetery founded by his father.
09:29.913 --> 09:46.103
[SPEAKER_03]: When other local cemeteries either refused to bury black people or segregated their burial plots, he was married four times and had six children, two sons and four daughters.
09:47.585 --> 09:59.238
[SPEAKER_03]: Joining me in this episode is Dr. Marion Orr, Frederick lipit professor of public policy and professor of political science at Brown University.
09:59.278 --> 10:11.972
[SPEAKER_03]: And to author of House of Diggs, the rise and fall of America's most consequential black congressman Charles C. Diggs Jr.
10:12.847 --> 10:27.585
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see, girl, Let's have fun, let's have fun.
10:27.685 --> 10:31.931
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's have fun, let's have fun.
10:31.951 --> 10:39.360
[UNKNOWN]: Let's have fun, let's have fun.
10:40.808 --> 10:41.429
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Marianne.
10:41.449 --> 10:42.950
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks so much for joining me today.
10:44.091 --> 10:46.634
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you for having me on your show.
10:47.455 --> 10:48.896
[SPEAKER_02]: Looking forward to our discussion.
10:48.916 --> 10:51.038
[SPEAKER_03]: This was a terrific book.
10:51.258 --> 10:53.440
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm looking forward to speaking about it.
10:53.941 --> 11:04.631
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to hear a little bit about what, first got you interested in writing this biography of Charles Tics Jr. Well, I'm a political scientist by training.
11:04.671 --> 11:10.377
[SPEAKER_02]: And I study American politics.
11:10.846 --> 11:16.695
[SPEAKER_02]: By many years ago, when I was an undergraduate student at Savannah State College, Dr.
11:16.755 --> 11:21.703
[SPEAKER_02]: Historically Black College in the hometown where I was raised and grew up there.
11:22.504 --> 11:29.074
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had a professor at Savannah State, a political scientist, his name was Haines Walton.
11:29.054 --> 11:38.193
[SPEAKER_02]: Haines liked the T-shirt maker, Haines, his last name was Walton, and Professor Walton taught many of the political science courses at Savannah State.
11:38.654 --> 11:43.283
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a brilliant political scientist by the way.
11:43.533 --> 11:48.684
[SPEAKER_02]: Charles digs came up in many of the courses that Dr. Walton taught.
11:49.185 --> 12:02.875
[SPEAKER_02]: He came up in his course on American government when Professor Walton taught us about Congress digs came up because Charles digs was the founder of the congressional black caucus.
12:03.445 --> 12:18.338
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember Kelly that Dr. Walton taught a course on African politics and again, Diggs came up in that course because Charles Diggs was a leader in the American anti-partime movement.
12:18.619 --> 12:33.452
[SPEAKER_02]: So I learned about Charles Diggs when I was about 18 years old as an undergraduate political science student and then I went on to get my PhD in political science Kelly and I learned
12:33.432 --> 12:41.523
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I discovered that there was no book on no biography on dates, and so I decided to take the plunge.
12:41.543 --> 12:47.311
[SPEAKER_02]: It took me 10 years to do the research and writing the House of Diggs.
12:47.331 --> 12:49.334
[SPEAKER_03]: What did that research look like?
12:49.394 --> 12:51.777
[SPEAKER_03]: What kind of sources were you able to find?
12:52.098 --> 12:55.963
[SPEAKER_03]: And could you talk some about your use of oral history as well?
12:56.078 --> 13:06.681
[SPEAKER_02]: But certainly, the research is based, I should say, largely on the papers of Congressman Dave.
13:07.363 --> 13:15.420
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs donated his congressional personal and business papers to Howard University.
13:15.400 --> 13:44.091
[SPEAKER_02]: and there's about a 750 boxes of material that Dave's left is a rich source of information and data about the Congressman, his work on Capitol Hill, his business, his family owned a funeral home, by the way, and the funeral home was called the House of Dix and hit the title of the book.
13:44.240 --> 13:45.824
[SPEAKER_02]: from the Congressman papers.
13:46.647 --> 13:55.010
[SPEAKER_02]: I have archival data from all the presidential libraries under the presidents that Congressman did served under.
13:55.652 --> 13:59.262
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, Kelly, you mentioned us, I had
13:59.242 --> 14:21.098
[SPEAKER_02]: one of the opportunity to interview about 30 individuals who actually knew the congressman, his family members, his colleagues on Capitol Hill, staff members, indeed neighbors who
14:21.078 --> 14:44.605
[SPEAKER_02]: data source that drives the book, lots of government data, also the congressman had lots of speeches on Capitol Hill, and then finally I was able to obtain congressman did's FDI file, and that was another rich source of information about his life.
14:45.597 --> 14:56.853
[SPEAKER_03]: I of course read and know a lot of American history and I'm especially interested in politics and I'd heard his name but I didn't know a whole lot about him before reading your book.
14:56.873 --> 15:04.804
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you talk a little bit about why he isn't better known despite his effectiveness, all the things he was able to do while he was in Congress.
15:05.695 --> 15:29.211
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Congressman did serve on Capitol Hill from 1955 to 1980, some nearly 25 years, and many people may remember the name and heard the name because he really played a vital and important role, but they don't know how much about him as you indicated.
15:29.933 --> 15:33.458
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a couple of reasons for this,
15:33.573 --> 15:43.319
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, when Diggs was in Congress, he served alongside for many of the years he was in Congress of a man named Adam Clayton Powell.
15:43.961 --> 15:47.751
[SPEAKER_02]: Adam Clayton Powell was a Congress member from Farla.
15:48.001 --> 15:54.051
[SPEAKER_02]: a black Congress member who arrived in Capitol Hill 10 years before Diggs.
15:54.692 --> 16:10.279
[SPEAKER_02]: And Powell was a very thumpoyant, Congress member, and he got the attention that is
16:12.065 --> 16:14.569
[SPEAKER_02]: doing the post were what to carry it.
16:15.290 --> 16:24.424
[SPEAKER_02]: Just number one, he was overshadowed, I believe, by this very, uh, demonereing, congressman, out of clay and piled.
16:24.444 --> 16:38.005
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other reason I believe many people have forgotten about digs, is I believe his downfall had something to do about
16:38.390 --> 16:43.791
[SPEAKER_02]: his what some people call and told me his his enraiser from history.
16:44.293 --> 16:46.020
[SPEAKER_02]: He had a tremendous
16:46.118 --> 16:46.759
[SPEAKER_02]: downfall.
16:46.799 --> 16:57.007
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I should tell your listeners that he eventually spent seven months in prison for payroll irregularities that he was convicted on.
16:57.448 --> 17:09.298
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me guess at, digs unlike how was sort of unassuming soft spoken, kind of individual who can often get overlooked on Capitol Hill.
17:09.678 --> 17:16.024
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think those two features his downfall
17:16.004 --> 17:17.067
[SPEAKER_02]: Adam Clayton Powell.
17:17.870 --> 17:22.142
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you talk to them about the legislative style that Diggs had?
17:22.182 --> 17:24.750
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, he was, as I mentioned, he was pretty effective.
17:24.790 --> 17:27.037
[SPEAKER_03]: There were a lot of things he was able to do.
17:27.137 --> 17:30.908
[SPEAKER_03]: So what, what was his approach to governing?
17:31.529 --> 17:39.931
[SPEAKER_02]: When digs to arrive in Congress in 1955, there are only two other black members of Congress.
17:40.653 --> 17:46.247
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's three black members out of 435 House numbers.
17:47.138 --> 17:50.263
[SPEAKER_02]: And Diggs arrived in Congress.
17:50.303 --> 17:53.749
[SPEAKER_02]: He had to decide how he was going to approach the legislature.
17:54.610 --> 18:03.325
[SPEAKER_02]: And what he decided to do was to carve out what I call a politics of strategic moderation.
18:03.305 --> 18:10.375
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me just say this, the other two members of Congress, Black members of Congress, was a man named William Dawson.
18:11.196 --> 18:19.188
[SPEAKER_02]: Dawson was a Black Congress member from Chicago and he was very conservative, especially around racial issues.
18:19.608 --> 18:32.687
[SPEAKER_02]: Dawson came out of the Chicago machine and he was somewhat controlled by the machine in terms of what he could say and what he could do.
18:32.768 --> 18:45.158
[SPEAKER_02]: On the other hand, Adam Clayton Powell, whom I mentioned earlier, was outspoken and spoke out forcefully on racial issues.
18:45.239 --> 18:49.950
[SPEAKER_02]: He was considered a black militant indeed a black radical.
18:51.128 --> 19:02.530
[SPEAKER_02]: What did this side it was in an effort to be effective in Congress in order to build coal issues that you really had to, you know, be strategic.
19:03.351 --> 19:08.140
[SPEAKER_02]: And his strategy was to chart out this sort of moderate approach.
19:08.260 --> 19:14.352
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me be very clear what I mean by a politics of strategic moderation.
19:14.585 --> 19:17.353
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs was a raceman from his heart.
19:17.413 --> 19:27.042
[SPEAKER_02]: He was very forceful, or racer-wish-wish-wish-wish-wish-wish-wish- spoke out against discrimination, and he was a strong supporter of black civil rights.
19:27.359 --> 19:29.661
[SPEAKER_02]: So he wasn't a moderate in the sense of this.
19:29.981 --> 19:38.590
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a moderate in the sense of his strategy and trying to build a broad-based coalition in the Congress.
19:39.470 --> 19:55.105
[SPEAKER_02]: He understood that given the fact that blacks were a numerical minority, only about 12% of the population and a racial minority, it required if a teaser
19:55.085 --> 20:03.916
[SPEAKER_02]: coalitions and he wanted to build and believe that black Americans had to have support from across the political spectrum.
20:04.837 --> 20:07.281
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what he tried to do as a Congress person.
20:07.301 --> 20:13.949
[SPEAKER_02]: They tried to build these broad-based coalitions across ideological spectrums.
20:14.430 --> 20:24.062
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was his approach and given the way our founding fathers established the Congress
20:24.143 --> 20:43.083
[SPEAKER_02]: this approach, I think, who much more effective than the power approach of militant radicalism and much more effective than Dawson's quiet ignorance or annoyance of Black racial issues.
20:43.503 --> 20:49.830
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the founding fathers established the Congress to be an institution of
20:49.810 --> 21:02.162
[SPEAKER_02]: bargaining and compromise, and that's what Diggs was effected back and working in that institution to both bill coalitions and understanding when one had to compromise.
21:03.363 --> 21:19.699
[SPEAKER_03]: So it seems in reading your book that, you know, in some ways, Diggs, and partly because he was one of only a few black congressman, as you mentioned, that he, he almost had to be a congress member,
21:19.679 --> 21:26.769
[SPEAKER_03]: Mississippi of Washington, D.C. of the larger black population want to start with Mississippi.
21:26.869 --> 21:29.453
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you talk some about his connections to Mississippi?
21:29.493 --> 21:39.588
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, you know, he has some really important moments, especially sort of early in the civil rights movement, where he's in Mississippi, where he's fighting for the people of Mississippi.
21:39.628 --> 21:48.100
[SPEAKER_02]: Dick spent a lot of time early on in his career,
21:48.417 --> 21:53.864
[SPEAKER_02]: He was thrown especially to Mississippi because it's his ancestral home.
21:53.984 --> 22:00.892
[SPEAKER_02]: His father, his father, Charles Dick's senior, was a part of the Great Migration.
22:01.453 --> 22:14.408
[SPEAKER_02]: His mother, Manny, Dick's came from Tennessee and so a Dick's ancestral home was indeed Mississippi.
22:15.687 --> 22:31.587
[SPEAKER_02]: When the first things that he did was to go down to Mississippi in the summer of 1955, to observe the trial of the two white men who had murdered in it till.
22:31.668 --> 22:43.285
[SPEAKER_02]: Your listeners may recognize in the Till's name, in the Till was the 14-year-old black-to-carboboy who was lynched in Mississippi in the summer of 1955.
22:44.466 --> 22:55.202
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, it did first national exposure, if you will, or was his attending the trial of these two white men.
22:56.123 --> 22:58.266
[SPEAKER_02]: And I say this in the book,
22:59.326 --> 23:08.309
[SPEAKER_02]: out repeated here is that did was had a major impact on the trial while he was there.
23:08.830 --> 23:11.918
[SPEAKER_02]: I think an impact has been overlooked by many.
23:12.151 --> 23:18.882
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one did his presence and he was actually in the courtroom during the five days of the trial.
23:19.664 --> 23:33.467
[SPEAKER_02]: His presence in the courtroom gave assurance and encouragement to the black witnesses who came forward to testify against the two white men.
23:33.447 --> 23:44.599
[SPEAKER_02]: It was Kelly and your listeners are dangerous than in 1955 for black men and women to accuse a white person of a crime.
23:44.619 --> 23:57.092
[SPEAKER_02]: And so these black witnesses who came forward in Mississippi, they were, they told reporters
23:57.072 --> 24:10.250
[SPEAKER_02]: in the courtroom, seeing a powerful black man from the federal government in the courtroom during the trial gave them the courage to testify at the trial.
24:10.630 --> 24:15.717
[SPEAKER_02]: So he had a big impact on the black witnesses that came forward.
24:16.218 --> 24:23.788
[SPEAKER_02]: The other impact he had at the trial is that Dave's presence
24:23.768 --> 24:38.278
[SPEAKER_02]: government official at the trial his presence drew additional media attention to the trial and moreover to the broader issue of civil rights in in in the south.
24:38.759 --> 24:40.883
[SPEAKER_02]: So the media was just
24:40.863 --> 24:48.371
[SPEAKER_02]: curious about this new black member of Congress, and again, he just, he just arrived in January of 55.
24:48.992 --> 24:54.237
[SPEAKER_02]: The trial is taking place in us and late August, early September of 1955.
24:54.398 --> 24:58.582
[SPEAKER_02]: It's sort of reporters are curious about this new black Congressman.
24:58.942 --> 25:04.628
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it that would draw in this person, you know, from Detroit to Mississippi to jerk the trial?
25:05.069 --> 25:10.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And then finally,
25:11.288 --> 25:13.953
[SPEAKER_02]: is what you said early in your question to me.
25:15.215 --> 25:33.769
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs presents at the trial of the two white men who murdered Emmett Till was really sending a single to America about what kind of Congress member he planned to be and what he was saying.
25:34.711 --> 25:56.300
[SPEAKER_02]: By being down in Mississippi, he was saying to America that although I was elected from the 13th congressional district of Michigan, and although I planned to represent that district, he was saying he also planned to be a Congress member for all a black America.
25:56.620 --> 26:03.469
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you look at his career, you see he did just that.
26:03.449 --> 26:07.293
[SPEAKER_02]: for all a black America doing his period in Congress.
26:08.354 --> 26:19.004
[SPEAKER_03]: And of course, another segment of black America that was and still is unrepresented in Congress is the population of Washington DC.
26:19.064 --> 26:31.836
[SPEAKER_03]: And I've been really interested in the more current movement for statehood, but I don't think I realized how far back
26:32.069 --> 26:47.957
[SPEAKER_03]: He talks about what he was able to do in the House Committee that, of course, we didn't get all the way to statehood in DC, but he was able to really have a big impact on the ability of DC residents to have some control, at least, in the way their city was governed.
26:48.738 --> 26:49.039
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
26:49.479 --> 26:49.720
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
26:50.101 --> 26:53.807
[SPEAKER_02]: Washington DC is a unique kind of city.
26:54.580 --> 26:59.504
[SPEAKER_02]: in that it is the seat of the federal government.
27:00.365 --> 27:09.133
[SPEAKER_02]: And so Washington D.C. was carved out of portions of Maryland and portions of Virginia.
27:09.974 --> 27:24.587
[SPEAKER_02]: And our constitution, the United States constitution, Kelly gives Congress exclusive control over the federal district, Washington D.C., and many people don't know this,
27:24.567 --> 27:32.245
[SPEAKER_02]: for the beginning of BC's history, Congress given that it had control over the district.
27:32.787 --> 27:36.315
[SPEAKER_02]: Congress allowed local...
27:37.578 --> 27:42.866
[SPEAKER_02]: officials to run Washington DC for decades indeed.
27:43.647 --> 28:05.037
[SPEAKER_02]: Until after the Civil War, when more and more Black people moved to Washington DC, Black people now have to write the vote after at least Black men do after the Civil War, and so Black began to have political power shortly
28:05.219 --> 28:17.039
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Congress decides that it would remove home rule and no longer allow local officials to run Washington DC.
28:17.239 --> 28:31.463
[SPEAKER_02]: So for a hundred years following reconstruction until around 1973, the president of the United States appointed the mayor and other top officials in Washington DC.
28:31.443 --> 28:45.958
[SPEAKER_02]: to make the long story short, though the members of Congress simply did not want black people to have governing authority over over Washington D.C.
28:46.023 --> 29:07.693
[SPEAKER_02]: what happened is that in 1973, Dex became chair of the committee that had jurisdiction over Washington D.C. and he was able to push through the Congress, a bill that is now called the
29:07.673 --> 29:17.549
[SPEAKER_02]: Congress now allows DC residents to vote for its mayor, city council members, and other public officials.
29:17.850 --> 29:27.285
[SPEAKER_02]: So for 100 years, there was this real push for home rule, as it's now called, and did's was able to put
29:28.109 --> 29:44.065
[SPEAKER_02]: through a compromised bill, let me get say that that allow for the kind of home rule we have today that as you indicate it, Kelly, at least apply it's currently being scrutinized heavily by the Trump administration.
29:44.605 --> 29:57.778
[SPEAKER_02]: So Charles Dick's junior is indeed the father of home rule in Washington DC and we can
29:58.062 --> 30:06.351
[SPEAKER_02]: Bowman dares like Mary and Barry to the work and effort of Charles Dates and pushing through the home room bill through Congress.
30:07.833 --> 30:17.472
[SPEAKER_03]: And if I am remembering your book correctly, Diggs was actually interested in there being a DC statehood as well, but of course, we have not gotten there.
30:18.554 --> 30:23.684
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Charles Diggs was a strategic and skill legislator.
30:24.285 --> 30:28.153
[SPEAKER_02]: And he understood that in 1973,
30:28.876 --> 30:36.668
[SPEAKER_02]: that you were not going to get through the Congress, or Bill that would grant Washington DC Statehood.
30:37.188 --> 30:51.930
[SPEAKER_02]: He supported Statehood and supported Statehood movement, but he understood that Richard Nixon, who was present at the time, a Republican president, was not going to sign a bill.
30:51.910 --> 31:02.441
[SPEAKER_02]: that would grant Washington D.C. statehood and potentially allow two democratic senators to come into the Congress.
31:03.202 --> 31:19.318
[SPEAKER_02]: And hence to compromise, hence days had to, you know, he understood that he had to grab something and the best thing D.C. has ever had right now is the current home rule
31:19.906 --> 31:24.794
[SPEAKER_02]: Today, probably would not get through the Congress.
31:25.155 --> 31:35.012
[SPEAKER_02]: If a home rule bill came through today, I suspect it would be a challenge for digs or anyone else to get it through the Congress.
31:35.161 --> 31:35.982
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
31:36.002 --> 31:42.534
[SPEAKER_03]: So you mentioned earlier digs interest in Africa and his his work there.
31:42.694 --> 31:50.107
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you expand some on that and you know how he got the the name Mr. Africa, the the work he was able to do.
31:50.688 --> 31:57.760
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, I there are three chapters in the book about Africa because Charles digs
31:59.056 --> 32:08.790
[SPEAKER_02]: became the first American legislator to take a genuine and have a genuine interest in Africa.
32:09.631 --> 32:17.862
[SPEAKER_02]: No other, no other congressman had ever taken African policy so seriously as congressman did.
32:18.744 --> 32:28.978
[SPEAKER_02]: In 1959, Diggs became the first black American to sit on the House Foreign Affairs
32:29.212 --> 32:58.223
[SPEAKER_02]: from his position on that committee, and 10 years later, in 1969, when it became chair of the Africa subcommittee of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, he began to talk about apartheid.
32:59.114 --> 33:07.909
[SPEAKER_02]: This was talking about apartheid in the 1950s before many Americans knew what apartheid was all about.
33:08.041 --> 33:19.536
[SPEAKER_02]: And so Kelly and your listeners, the American anti-apartheid movement literally started in Dick's congressional office.
33:20.257 --> 33:35.196
[SPEAKER_02]: He became the member of Congress who everybody looked for, for ideas and strategies and policy around Africa, and he would work really hard.
33:36.020 --> 33:47.555
[SPEAKER_02]: as chair of the Africa subcommittee to awaken America to the racist system of apartheid that was happening in South Africa.
33:47.835 --> 34:00.492
[SPEAKER_02]: And he digs was really going against the grain of American
34:00.725 --> 34:08.955
[SPEAKER_02]: because our nation, our government, was closely allied with the South African regime.
34:10.437 --> 34:27.357
[SPEAKER_02]: And this had to work hard to break the bond between our nation and the South African regime.
34:27.337 --> 34:33.564
[SPEAKER_02]: Our nation view South Africa as a strategic ally in the Cold War.
34:34.245 --> 34:47.541
[SPEAKER_02]: And so while Diggs was trying to break the bond between our nation and South Africa, you have democratic and republican presidents trying to keep the bond in place.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so I argue in the book that Diggs worked in South Africa.
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[SPEAKER_02]: was perhaps his greatest challenge and indeed his greatest accomplishment as you and your listless probably know in 1994 Nelson Mandela was elected the first black African to
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[SPEAKER_02]: In summer of 1990, he noted that it was the work of the Black members of Congress led by Charlie Diggs, that freed him from prison, that freed Mandela from prison, and brought down the racist regime in South Africa.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mentioned that Doug started the congressional black caucus.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think this is probably a caucus that a lot of people have heard of.
35:46.740 --> 35:49.845
[SPEAKER_03]: It's of course much bigger now, much more influential.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Could you talk a little bit about how it started why some of the black members of Congress didn't actually want to form a caucus originally?
35:59.373 --> 36:14.344
[SPEAKER_02]: When Diggs arrived in Congress in January of 1955, as I said earlier, there were only two other black members of Congress, and claimed power to black radical, and Bill Dawson to black conservative.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs discovered that the two men did not talk to one another.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They didn't get along with the one another.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I believe walking into this situation digs at a sense it just wasn't really good for black America.
36:28.527 --> 36:33.977
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe he understood right away that the three of them ought to be working together somehow.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, in 1968,
36:38.185 --> 36:43.372
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs would take up the idea of forming a caucus.
36:43.933 --> 36:59.215
[SPEAKER_02]: That is to bring together at the time the 13 black members of Congress, many of whom represent at similar districts, all of whom would Democrats, and all of whom had
36:59.583 --> 37:03.455
[SPEAKER_02]: challenges back home in the districts that overlap.
37:04.037 --> 37:10.478
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this believed that the Black members of Congress should sort of coalesce and come together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so what he did.
37:12.509 --> 37:23.164
[SPEAKER_02]: was to, first of all, they met informally, before they really formed the congressional black caucus, they met informally in Diggs office to discuss policy and these kinds of things.
37:23.524 --> 37:31.615
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in 1968, when the number of blacks reached a 13, Diggs would formalize the group.
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[SPEAKER_02]: into an organization that he called the Democrat Select Committee.
37:38.705 --> 37:45.771
[SPEAKER_02]: So the Democratic Select Committee was formed in 1969 and Diggs was its leader.
37:46.592 --> 38:01.264
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in 1971, the Democratic Select Committee, which aims its name to the congressional
38:01.244 --> 38:04.949
[SPEAKER_02]: the caucus principle, a spokesperson and leader.
38:05.389 --> 38:12.138
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, days would become the first tear person of the congressional black caucus.
38:12.519 --> 38:21.210
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the first things that they did was to a boycott Richard Nixon's 1971 state of the Union speech.
38:21.831 --> 38:28.500
[SPEAKER_02]: And that would eventually lead
38:28.480 --> 38:38.012
[SPEAKER_02]: between Richard Nixon and the president of the United States and the 13 members of this new caucus, the Congressional Black Caucus.
38:38.272 --> 38:44.119
[SPEAKER_02]: And today, the caucus now have, I believe, 62 members.
38:44.960 --> 38:50.387
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's one of the most powerful political organizations I believe you could argue in the country.
38:51.295 --> 38:56.000
[SPEAKER_03]: We've been talking about a wonderful, effective things that digs did.
38:56.020 --> 39:00.525
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we need to mention his downfall, as you mentioned.
39:00.846 --> 39:11.778
[SPEAKER_03]: So can you talk a little bit about the scandal that digs found himself in how a little bit about how it came about and the end result for him?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Charles digs for it.
39:16.017 --> 39:21.874
[SPEAKER_02]: Many, many years had difficulty managing his personal finances.
39:22.416 --> 39:29.436
[SPEAKER_02]: Difficulty on wilderness, I don't know how to describe it, but he was a guy who always would overspin.
39:29.872 --> 39:40.389
[SPEAKER_02]: And this was something that started early on when he was in his early 20s working for his father at the family owned dinner home, the house of Dick's funeral home.
39:41.151 --> 39:44.636
[SPEAKER_02]: He had a salary as a young man working for his father.
39:45.277 --> 39:51.448
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm told the interviews that Dick's was spent as salary and come to his father for extra money.
39:51.808 --> 39:54.192
[SPEAKER_02]: And his dad was said, come on now.
39:54.172 --> 39:55.815
[SPEAKER_02]: Spin your money wisely.
39:55.856 --> 39:58.000
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not giving any more money.
39:58.401 --> 40:13.092
[SPEAKER_02]: So he had a pension for for over spending and He had a tendency of relying on the house of digs funeral home to finance his over spending
40:13.578 --> 40:23.068
[SPEAKER_02]: So he would come to the funeral home because he's like the owner of it and he would sort of get the cash he need to pay his personal finances.
40:23.709 --> 40:37.064
[SPEAKER_02]: The funeral home would eventually collapse in the early 70s, the House of Diggs, which was a very prominent business enterprise for about 30 years would eventually collapse.
40:37.084 --> 40:40.227
[SPEAKER_02]: And I discussed this in the book, I won't go into it now.
40:40.561 --> 40:47.150
[SPEAKER_02]: and hits, digs did not have the source of additional income coming in.
40:48.672 --> 40:54.881
[SPEAKER_02]: Now let me say this, this is not an excuse for what digs eventually was convicted of.
40:54.981 --> 41:00.169
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just trying to explain to you and your listeners what happened to Congressman digs.
41:00.629 --> 41:08.340
[SPEAKER_02]: So without the funeral home, he did not have this sort of cash he could get his hands on.
41:08.422 --> 41:15.550
[SPEAKER_02]: given his prominence and Congress, chair of a subcommittee, a chair of a full committee.
41:15.570 --> 41:19.113
[SPEAKER_02]: He became chair of the DC committee as I indicated.
41:19.674 --> 41:21.956
[SPEAKER_02]: He had access to resources.
41:22.337 --> 41:23.078
[SPEAKER_02]: And here's what he did.
41:24.659 --> 41:36.572
[SPEAKER_02]: He gave his secretary a salary raise, an increase in her salary, and the increased salary was given back to Congressman Diggs.
41:37.058 --> 41:39.840
[SPEAKER_02]: is called a payroll kickback scheme.
41:40.901 --> 41:46.606
[SPEAKER_02]: I give you an increase in your salary, but you give that salary increase back to me as the boss.
41:47.067 --> 41:56.034
[SPEAKER_02]: And Diggs did this for about two and a half years with his secretary, and he used those funds to pay his personal bills.
41:56.715 --> 42:06.103
[SPEAKER_02]: The woman with whom he was doing this scheme were eventually resigned, so the payroll schemes sort of
42:06.269 --> 42:23.287
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs would hire a successor, a person to replace this woman, and this person would discover in Diggs' personnel files, the payroll kickback scheme.
42:24.168 --> 42:35.820
[SPEAKER_02]: I won't reveal this person to your listeners, here they have to get the book to get it,
42:35.952 --> 43:04.120
[SPEAKER_02]: that he had been involved in this payroll kickback scheme and picked up the phone and called the Justice Department and gave them a tip about what days had been involved in and this person asked the Justice Department for this person to remain anonymous, not to reveal the name.
43:04.252 --> 43:15.908
[SPEAKER_02]: of the confidential informer who told the justice department about bitch payroll kickback skin.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This would eventually kill me.
43:19.513 --> 43:22.377
[SPEAKER_02]: Go on, become undid it.
43:23.639 --> 43:33.432
[SPEAKER_02]: You will go on the trial and be convicted by your nanomiss jury of 11 black Americans and
43:33.968 --> 43:39.398
[SPEAKER_02]: convicted him on all counts in the payroll kickback scheme.
43:40.460 --> 43:50.598
[SPEAKER_02]: Diggs would eventually be censored by the Congress, which is the most severe punishment short-up of folks in.
43:52.642 --> 43:55.808
[SPEAKER_02]: And he would eventually spend seven months.
43:56.159 --> 43:59.705
[SPEAKER_02]: and federal prison for the payroll kickback scheme.
43:59.745 --> 44:06.135
[SPEAKER_02]: He had to resign after he's been censored and then he went to prison for seven months.
44:06.636 --> 44:09.460
[SPEAKER_02]: He would come out of prison in 1981.
44:10.222 --> 44:12.345
[SPEAKER_02]: And he would live.
44:14.114 --> 44:16.557
[SPEAKER_02]: out of the stroke, August of 1998.
44:16.857 --> 44:21.403
[SPEAKER_02]: So he lived about 18 years after serving in Congress.
44:21.683 --> 44:30.354
[SPEAKER_02]: He lived after Congress in and around Washington DC and Prince George's county got involved in local politics and Prince George's county.
44:31.135 --> 44:34.580
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I said, died of a stroke in August of 1998.
44:35.901 --> 44:39.666
[SPEAKER_02]: And was buried next to his mom and dad in Detroit.
44:40.625 --> 44:49.167
[SPEAKER_03]: There is, of course, much more in this book, as you know, things like the identity of the informant, can you tell listeners how they can get a copy of the book?
44:50.041 --> 44:54.507
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, your listeners can purchase this book through amazon.com.
44:55.068 --> 45:00.256
[SPEAKER_02]: You can go online to university of North Carolina Press.org.
45:00.276 --> 45:02.539
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the publisher of the book.
45:02.559 --> 45:06.124
[SPEAKER_02]: And the book is available in some local book stores.
45:06.625 --> 45:10.210
[SPEAKER_02]: Go to my website, marryinor.com.
45:10.250 --> 45:14.276
[SPEAKER_02]: You can learn more about me and learn how to purchase the book also.
45:14.737 --> 45:15.057
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
45:15.578 --> 45:18.242
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that anything else you wanted to make sure we talk about?
45:19.083 --> 45:28.834
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I want to underscore this one point, is this to say that you mentioned that digs are sort of not well known and would have you.
45:29.094 --> 45:37.744
[SPEAKER_02]: My tip is to end with this book is to present or restore it up and correct up sort of history of this gentleman.
45:38.525 --> 45:44.331
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to just say that to your listeners, that Congressman digs
45:44.395 --> 45:48.620
[SPEAKER_02]: should not be known solely by his downfall.
45:49.641 --> 45:55.829
[SPEAKER_02]: And the payroll kickbacks gained that sent him to prison and really undermine his career.
45:56.750 --> 46:05.020
[SPEAKER_02]: Dicks should, for another hand, be known for and recognize for his tremendous contributions.
46:06.422 --> 46:14.031
[SPEAKER_02]: That despite what happened to him,
46:14.433 --> 46:27.407
[SPEAKER_02]: He loved this country, and he really wanted this country to stand up and be true to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
46:27.427 --> 46:36.998
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, my book, The House of Dances, is really an attempt to present to the readers ofography of a wonderful American.
46:36.978 --> 46:40.783
[SPEAKER_02]: that many of us should know more about because of his work.
46:41.184 --> 46:51.879
[SPEAKER_02]: These was a freedom fighter on two continents in North America, here in the US, and a freedom fighter in Africa.
46:53.100 --> 46:54.122
[SPEAKER_03]: Mary, thank you so much.
46:54.202 --> 46:56.265
[SPEAKER_03]: This was an incredible read.
46:56.285 --> 47:00.671
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so glad to have learned more about it, and it was a pleasure to speak with you.
47:01.131 --> 47:01.812
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you.
47:01.872 --> 47:05.297
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again for your interest, and thank you for your listeners out there.
47:07.808 --> 47:36.364
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom, it's a lot of freedom
47:36.563 --> 47:59.348
[SPEAKER_01]: In Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanuala, in Sanual
48:01.201 --> 48:03.163
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48:03.944 --> 48:07.469
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48:07.949 --> 48:13.436
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48:14.057 --> 48:20.144
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48:32.007 --> 48:34.520
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48:35.303 --> 48:39.283
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48:39.645 --> 48:39.966
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