Christmas Films, the Early Cold War & the FBI

Kelly Therese Pollock  0:00  
This is Unsung History, the podcast where we discuss people and events in American history that haven't always received a lot of attention. I'm your host, Kelly Therese Pollock. I'll start each episode with a brief introduction to the topic, and then talk to someone who knows a lot more than I do. Be sure to subscribe to Unsung History on your favorite podcasting app so you never miss an episode, and please tell your friends, family, neighbors, colleagues, maybe even strangers, to listen too. Just days after the bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese in December of 1941, director Frank Capra joined the US Army as a major. At 44, he was considered too old to fight, and he was instead assigned to work under Chief of Staff, George C. Marshall, making documentaries to explain to the troops, "why the hell they're in uniform." The resulting seven episode, "Why We Fight" series was highly regarded, with the first film in the series, "Prelude to War," winning the 1942 Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. Capra was discharged from the army in 1945, as a colonel, and was awarded a number of honors, including the Legion of Merit in 1943, and the Distinguished Service Medal in 1945. On May 5, 1946, Capra published an op ed in the New York Times bemoaning the, "aura of sameness" that had developed in Hollywood under the consolidated power of studio heads, citing the application of mass production methods and noting, "We writers, directors, and producers began to get ideas not from real life, but from each other's pictures. Hollywood was isolating itself with a wall of mirrors." Capra's solution was to form an independent production company with directors William Wyler and George Stevens and producer Samuel J. Briskin. They called their new studio Liberty Films. The first of only two movies to come out of Liberty Films was "It's A Wonderful Life" in 1946, starring Jimmy Stewart as George Bailey, a small town banker who is contemplating suicide until his guardian angel, Clarence Odbody, helps him to see the lives he's touched and the good that he's done. Although it's now considered one of the greatest American films of all time, "It's a Wonderful Life" was unsuccessful at the box office, and it garnered mixed reviews, earning five nominations for Academy Awards, but winning none of them. The film did draw attention from one unlikely place, though, the FBI. The Cold War was just beginning. In a March, 1947 joint session of Congress, President Harry S. Truman established what became known as the Truman Doctrine, with the goal of stopping the spread of communism. In Congress, the House Un-American Activities Committee, or HUAC, was investigating Hollywood, and in November, 1947, 10 screenwriters and directors, The Hollywood 10, were held in contempt by Congress, in part, for refusing to answer the question, "Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?" At the other end of the spectrum from the Hollywood 10, was the Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals, MPAPAI, formed in 1944 to defend the industry against infiltration by communists, writing that they resented, "the growing impression that this industry is made of and dominated by communist radicals and crackpots." One member of the MPAPAI, novelist and screenwriter, Ayn Rand, wrote a pamphlet in 1947 titled, "Screen Guide for Americans" that outlined recommendations for filmmakers of things to avoid in their films so that they did not, "help advance the cause of communism." This list included number four, "Don't smear wealth," number six, "Don't smear success," and number nine, "Don't deify the common man." After writing a set of comprehensive rules for filmmakers, Rand, in her conclusion, noted that, in the spirit of free speech, there should not be any laws against communists speaking their mind, "But the principle of free speech does not require that we furnish the communists with the means to preach their ideas, and does not imply that we owe them jobs and support to advocate our own destruction at our own expense. The constitutional guarantee of free speech reads, Congress shall pass no laws. It does not require employers to be suckers." Against this backdrop, and using Rand's guide, the FBI conducted its investigation into the Communist Infiltration of the Motion Picture Industry, or COMPIC, looking into more than 200 films, including "It's A Wonderful Life." Two of the screenwriters for the film, husband and wife, Frances Goodrich and Albert Hackett, "were very close to known communists, and on one occasion in the recent past, practically lived with known communists." They even ate lunch daily with known communists. In the film, Jimmy Stewart's George Bailey is a banker and a capitalist, albeit a compassionate capitalist, who is contrasted with the film's villain, another banker named Henry Potter, who owned most of the town and who stole misplaced money from Bailey's uncle. An FBI informant reviewing Its a Wonderful Life, alleged that the film, "represented a rather obvious attempt to discredit bankers by casting Lionel Barrymore as a scrooge type, so that he would be the most hated man in the picture, a common trick used by the communists." Furthermore, an informant claimed that the film, "deliberately maligned the upper class, attempting to show the people who had money were mean and despicable characters." Despite the allegation that the film was subversive, though, when the FBI gave their report to HUAC, nothing came of it. Capra's reputation suffered, though, and he eventually lost his security clearance after a review of his next film, "State of the Union" called it communist subversion. The popularity today of "It's a Wonderful Life" is due in part to a clerical error. In 1974, the film's copyright holder forgot to file for renewal, and once it entered the public domain, it was shown frequently on TV during the holiday season, expanding its audience to new generations. Joining me in this episode to discuss "It's a Wonderful Life" and ensuing Christmas films during the Cold War, is Dr. Vaughn Joy, author of, "Selling Out Santa: Hollywood Christmas Films in the Age of McCarthy."

Hi, Vaughn, welcome back to Unsung History.

Dr. Vaughn Joy  10:08  
Hello, Kelly, thank you so much for having me.

Kelly Therese Pollock  10:10  
Yes, I am so excited to talk about your new book and to talk about Christmas movies. Want to hear a little bit about what got you started on writing about Christmas films, you know why? Why you chose that as your subject, and if you are sick of Christmas films after doing all this research?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  10:30  
So the kind of not professional answer, I guess, is just that I love Christmas films, and I still love Christmas films after all this time. I I knew that I wanted to study the post war period for my PhD, and I knew I wanted to do film, and I was also very drawn to the idea of a genre study, as this kind of like constant that you can then apply variables to, like a changing economy. What changes in the genre as things improve or worsen. So that was appealing to me. And I can't do scary movies. I'm not a horror person, so I was looking for another genre, and my supervisor kind of jokingly said, "Why not Christmas?" Because this is the period. This is the period of American Christmas. It's a Wonderful Life, Miracle on 34th Street, White Christmas. Why not? And I said, Yeah, why not? Actually, that sounds really interesting. And he was a bit appalled at the idea of studying Christmas for four plus years, but we ran with it, and I'm so glad that I did.

Kelly Therese Pollock  11:38  
Obviously, watched all of these films probably millions of times. What are the other kinds of sources and things that we have to understand the films, the filmmakers, how they're thinking about it, why they're making the choices that they're making in putting these films together?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  11:56  
It's a great question. So for the films themselves, we were very fortunate to have a lot of press materials still. Where I was studying, I was very close to the British Film Institute, the BFI, and they have just so many sources to use about Pressbook materials and the marketing of these films at the Reuben Library. And that was that was really just a treasure trove. For Capra's materials, I was really lucky enough to go to Capra's archives at Wesleyan University in the Reid Cinema Archives, and he kept brilliant notes, every fan mail letter, every kind of iteration of a script. So that was that was fantastic and very lucky. So we have all of those personal sources, and then we have tons of secondary scholarship, of course, about all of these films. And then the other elements that that I look at in the book are the kind of political and social, cultural, economic contexts in Hollywood and the wider US. So those layers bring in documents from the FBI and testimony to the House Committee on Un-American Activities or HUAC, these kind of federal documents and correspondences with Hollywood elite, all of those things. And then for Hollywood itself, we have the trade journals, The Hollywood Reporter. So all of these, just like vast materials, give us a lot of context for the Christmas film specifically, but then also the wider political kind of climate that Hollywood is working in and the country is kind of reeling in through this period.

Kelly Therese Pollock  13:44  
People have probably heard of the House Un-American Activities Committee, HUAC, and might know something about that it was interested in Hollywood. Could you talk a little bit about why they were so interested in Hollywood, why they went to the trouble of blacklisting and having the 10 and everything like, what? What is it about movies, or Hollywood, or something that was so felt so important to this committee?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  14:10  
Yeah, so it, it starts a little before now. So in World War II, filmmakers were kind of conscripted. Hollywood was conscripted to work for the war effort by producing kind of pro war media, and largely kind of non fiction media. So Frank Capra made the Why We Fight series, and these played to the troops, but also to cinema audiences at home as kind of newsreel footage and things like that. So we were aware of the kind of vast power that Hollywood could have. There were other films like like "Mission to Moscow" that was pro Russian, because Russia was our ally, and it was important for Americans to have a kind of cultural connection to our allies and the war effort. So non fiction and fiction films were being made in Hollywood as part of this effort. And then when the war ended, and we had realized, "Oh, this is a real propaganda kind of vehicle." Some people were genuinely afraid that, what if this falls into the wrong hands and starts issuing messages that are un American, and some saw it as an opportunity to continue making pro American content, but really as the kind of primary content of Hollywood, and show it for free, like churches and schools and and cinemas around the country, as a kind of civic duty of Hollywood. That was kicked around In HUAC testimony from James K. McGinnis with the chairman of HUAC, J. Parnell Thomas, having this lovely little exchange about, what if we just make a bunch of propaganda and see what happens? Fascinating. So, so there's a real, genuine idea behind this, that Hollywood is capable of making propaganda, and that we should be aware of that. Then there's also the flip of the anti communist effort is just kind of starting, where we're we're starting the Cold War, and now we're kind of concerned about what the Russians are capable of, and we start really building our anti communist ideology in the US, and that is bipartisan. Truman has his loyalty order in early '47 that says all federal workers have to declare that they are not part of a subversive group that has ideology that is counter American, and we also have a proliferation of the fears of kind of the communist threat abroad that we need to contain. So while this is happening, there's this very pervasive idea that Hollywood is very visible and popular and they can make a spectacle of investigating Hollywood. And these, these ideas all kind of come hand in hand. So Hollywood is this, this very visible, glitzy, glamorous, kind of stage that that can be harnessed for lots of different propaganda means, and in this period, it very much is. 

Kelly Therese Pollock  17:41  
That brings us, then to perhaps the most unexpected character in your book, which is Ayn Rand, writing a booklet on like how to identify communism in movies. And then this gets applied shockingly by the FBI to Its Wonderful Life. Can you talk us through some of how does Ayn Rand get involved in this? And then, what are the FBI agents doing, trying to do film criticism? 

Dr. Vaughn Joy  18:10  
Yes, So this is a fascinating little era of our history, isn't it? So yes, Ayn Rand, she she came over from Russia as a young woman, and she was obsessed with Hollywood and the idea of America that she saw in Hollywood exports. So she makes her way to Hollywood and has the most kind of Hollywood dream experience by happening to run into Cecil B. DeMille, and he gives her a job just kind of on the street, so fairy tale exposure in Hollywood. So this, this really kicks off her kind of association with Hollywood. She comes in and out of the Hollywood story for a few decades, and ultimately had the film made, and becomes very kind of intertwined with the cultural right wing sector of Hollywood, and that right wing sector of Hollywood is busy making a different organization in this period to protect what they think are American ideals being the Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals, the MPAPAI, and that organization hires Ayn Rand to write for their publication called The Vigil. And she does a couple things for them, and one of them is this pamphlet called The Screen Guide for Americans that yes, is a list of of 13 things not to do in your films, 13 things to avoid putting to screen, to not be named a communist. So if you do do any of these things, then you will be named a communist or suspected of communist sympathies in your film. And they're nonsensical. Honestly, things like Don't glorify the common man, and Don't insult American institutions, things like that. And the FBI gets a hold of this screen guide and quotes it in their report, their internal memo that they kept for over a decade called the Communist Infiltration of the Motion Picture Industry Report. It's called COMPIC, and it is available by FOIA all over the internet. You can find it. I also wish we didn't have to talk about Ayn Rand. And everyone who read my dissertation and throughout the years was like, "You're really giving Ayn Rand too much credit," but so did the FBI, and that means we have to talk about her and her, her little list. And this, does it, does it pops up in an interesting way by the FBI, using her list of Don'ts to discuss It's A Wonderful Life as potential communist subversion. 

Kelly Therese Pollock  21:03  
I imagine many listeners, maybe the vast majority of listeners, have seen It's a Wonderful Life, and are probably scratching their heads and saying, "I don't recall any Communist propaganda in this film." So what? What is it that these FBI agents, anyone looking at this to try to find communism, like, what is it that they're identifying, that they think, like, "Oh, look, this is Communist propaganda," that the rest of us are clearly not seeing?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  21:32  
That we just do not see because it's not there. I think the important thing to start with is that it is just not communism. And Ill a lot of the times. In this period when communism was alleged, it was not communism. It was like the person doing the alleging would not be able to give you a definition of communism. And that is what is happening here, in It's a Wonderful Life. So the FBI file suggests that It's a Wonderful Life, is quote unquote maligning the upper class, and it's portraying Potter as evil. It's vilifying him as a quote unquote Scrooge-like character, because he indulges in wealth. And that's like, okay, like, yes, that is in the film, but in a very capitalist American way. It's not counter American to condemn a monopolist. It's actually extremely American, especially in the like early 20th century, America was very much like trust busting. One of our revered presidents, Teddy Roosevelt, was the trust buster. He it's like very American to not like monopolistic misers and also to promote the exceptionalism of the common man that we see in George Bailey and the tight knit small town Americana feeling of Bedford Falls where everybody, not just George, everybody in that community, except for Potter, is selfless and working together constantly to keep their society going. So I and probably many of you, think of It's a Wonderful Life as just this deeply American film that is now nostalgic, because we did not preserve a lot of the American ideals in It's a Wonderful Life going forward in the 20th and 21st centuries. But it is this, like deeply nostalgic film about the promise of America and what we could have had if we stuck to our American values in that very idealistic Capricorn kind of way. But the FBI took issue.

Kelly Therese Pollock  24:00  
Even though we think, you know, this is obviously an unfair read of the film, there's not actually communism there. But nonetheless, Hollywood reacted right to these kinds of accusations, not just of this film, but the way that HUAC was going after Hollywood in general. And that's what you're looking at in your book, is the 15 year stretch. So what happens? How does Hollywood react to this? They don't start making pro communism films in response, right?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  24:36  
No, but we do have more of that promise of McGinnis and Thomas's idea of more pro American films. And just the caveat, what, what I am talking about here and in the book, is not blanket for every film that was made in the 1950s, but it is very specific here. The argument I am making to Christmas films in this period, that there is a very clear arc that we can see happening as a result of the pressures on Hollywood and the changing political, cultural, social, economic landscape of the US in this 15 year period from '46 to '61 so what we do start to see is a real shift from communalist thinking to individualism. And that's that's for several reasons. First, this '46 It's A Wonderful Life. And then some of the, all three of the Dickensian films from '47 and the Santa Claus film from '47 being Miracle on 34th Street. They all have these real communalist kind of ideas of using Christmas as a lens to think about society and who we are, who we have been to each other, and who we would like to be going forward. They use Christmas as this, this period of reflection and growth, and that's normally embodied by a Scrooge-like character having a moralizing arc like Scrooge does in Dickens' A Christmas Carol, and they comment on larger systemic and societal problems like homelessness, the GI crisis after World War II and poverty just widely poverty, and they work to address it by individuals changing their actions and calling for larger systemic change. After '47, we get a very sharp change in the portrayal of Christmas in this period that maps on to larger trends that we do see in Hollywood, that is a shift to more simplistic plots, again, not in every film from the 1950s but more simplistic thoughts plots in terms of like comedies and musicals and romances. Christmas films like Holiday Affair from 1949 or White Christmas from 1954 have these, these more romanticized storylines that really kind of the worst thing that could possibly happen is not George ending his life as it was in It's Wonderful Life, but rather a kind of like, will they? Won't they? Ross and Rachel? Thing that like Janet Leigh doesn't end up with Robert Mitchum is the worst possible ending for these films. And we can really see that in films coming beyond this period, in like the Hallmark formula, that Christmas is a period of escapism, that these films are just purely individualistic, no greater problem than exactly what's in front of you with the interpersonal connections that you have with other people and like that tracks right? Like the 50s are a difficult period. There's nuclear threats for the first time, there's there are concerns that don't match what came before. We're a decade away from the problems of the Great Depression and World War II and many decades past the Spanish Influenza and World War I that we have, like, It's a Wonderful Life commenting on it. And these films from the 50s, they don't want to, they don't want to. They just don't have the range to do kind of nuclear threats and also systemic problems.

Kelly Therese Pollock  28:43  
As a result. These romances, then, are a very specific kind of heteronormative kind of romance. And I want to talk specifically about Susan Slept Here, which is from 1954 and you know, I watched it on my own, and then told my husband, you have to watch this because I need someone to talk to about this film. So what is happening in this film, and how is this sort of it's weird, but it's representative in a lot of ways, of this, this kind of view of romance and normalcy that you're seeing in these Christmas movies of this period,

Dr. Vaughn Joy  29:25  
It is for sure and and one of the things that I'll say before we get into the the cultural behemoth that is Susan Slept Here, is that this this period, is about domestic containment. So I just mentioned the the containment of communism abroad as our foreign policy in this period. But then we also have a cultural response to that, or a cultural parallel that is domestic containment, and that's the idea that you can't control the horrors outside of your home, the the just existential threat of nuclear annihilation, the fear that your neighbor could be a communist spy. These are very present for people, so psychologically, the nuclear family develops in this period as a way to stay sane. And that's part of this whole escapism. It's the idea that there is security in the home and you can control what is directly in front of you. The worst thing that could happen that you are in control of is your interpersonal relationships. Susan Slept Here is a film that I apologize for before talking about. So so Susan Slept Here is about this, this guy who ostensibly receives a 17 year old for Christmas and he takes her to Las Vegas, he marries her, and he's too much of a gentleman to consummate the marriage. So the rest of the film is about the 17 year old trying to prove how grown she is by reading women's journals and learning how to be a wife and then forcing herself on her husband to consummate their marriage. It is a wild film, but it's an absolute treasure trove for thinking about gender dynamics in the 1950s, how women learn to be women and wives, and this cultural containment, domestic containment, idea that wayward girls can be saved by a heteronormative marriage and the financial security and the physical security that comes with it.

Kelly Therese Pollock  31:37  
So I found myself thinking after watching it like all the ways that it could have been a more interesting story, and maybe, if it were told today, although I don't think it could be told, you know, just like a different ending, it could have, could have changed the film and made it more interesting and heartwarming, perhaps.

Dr. Vaughn Joy  31:56  
Perhaps, yeah, yeah. Probably, I think maybe in like, an adoption way, I don't think you can really do the age difference. It would not, especially not now, yeah, I don't think we could do that.

Kelly Therese Pollock  32:13  
Yeah. Well, it's, you know, I went into the film thinking like it was a different time, you know, but like they start right off the bat in like, the first scene saying she's 17 hands off.

Dr. Vaughn Joy  32:25  
Yeah, no, everybody. Everybody's like, ooh, don't touch her. And you're like, yeah, don't, don't do that. We agree. What it what a film, isn't it? And there's also, like, the suggestion that someone else got her pregnant, and that that's a whole thing. And it's like, why are we doing this? Why are we doing this to Debbie Reynolds? She deserves better.

Kelly Therese Pollock  32:48  
Yes, Debbie Reynolds, of course, should be noted, was not actually 17.

Dr. Vaughn Joy  32:53  
But no, she was 22 she was 22 at the time, and she's phenomenal in it. She's really great in this film.

Kelly Therese Pollock  33:00  
As you note, you know, we go from this period with these films that are, you know, kind of fluffy romantic or musicals, and then that continues into 1961, but with kind of a little more of an edge. You know, slightly slightly grittier, different kind of film. Can you talk a little bit about what what you're seeing there, what it is about the late 50s, or early 60s that lets us see this kind of shift in Christmas films?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  33:33  
Yeah. So, so we are nearing this, nearing the end of this decade that has been marked by so much fear and suspicion and cultural response to just this idea of nuclear annihilation at any time, and that gets kind of exhausting, and you get kind of angry being scared all the time, right? And I think that's what we start to see at the end of the 50s and into the 60s, is this, this response of like, I'm done with being just sad, and we get a return to Christmas films of villains. These, these rom coms don't have villains in them, so in films like The Apartment, which is still a romance in some ways, although a much more complicated one, or Babes in Toyland from Disney. They both have plots where you wouldn't really expect like a hardcore villain in them, but they do. They have them, and that becomes kind of a comfort for people that there's a villain that can be vanquished. We can't vanquish nuclear threats, so our escapism now has to have this kind of grittier edge to it, where the threat can be resolved by the end of the film. You can have a happy ending that touches a little bit closer to the social issues, the more societal problems that we're having, without the villain being a nebulous societal problem.

Kelly Therese Pollock  35:13  
Let's talk, then, just very briefly, about Babes in Toyland, because, again, very, very strange movie, bizarre, commercially successful, but strange. And I think, you know, one of the sort of most troubling aspects of it is the really deep misogyny in this film, the way that the character played by Annette Funicello, and you know this, this could have been a light romance with some weird twists without being quite so misogynistic. Yes. Is this a product of its time? Is it a product of Disney like, what do you do? You have thoughts on what is happening here? What this maybe tells us about 1961 or about films and Christmas?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  36:08  
Yeah, so I think this one is a really interesting one, because it is Disney's kind of first foray in feature length Christmas, and it's also the first feature length Christmas film that we get that is purely for children and marketed to children. That's kind of in response to the baby boom that we have just had and Disney's astronomical growth through the 50s. This film is also a feature length advertisement for Disneyland, which had opened a few years prior. So it's it's already interesting just in its kind of context around it. But then, yeah, it's bizarre. It is, it is a kind of bizarre film, and those those misogynist ideas, especially, there are two songs in particular where Annette Funicello is saying that she can't do the sum. She can't figure out her weekly finances, so she might as well marry the villain, because he's a man and he can. And then there's a song about how she's just a doll for the male characters to pose and play with, and in not an ironic tone, like a genuine giving herself over to that idea. And my my instinct here is to say that it is just a real, exaggerated idea. This is a film for kids, so let's teach kids gender norms in a very hyperbolic, extreme way, because something will stick in there, right? But you're right. It really is an outlier in this period, even for misogyny, that this character is so so feminized in the worst ways possible.

Kelly Therese Pollock  37:50  
Looking ahead then, from 1961 to the present day, obviously, there's a lot of Christmas movies, and we're not going to talk about all of them, but what do you see as what happened with Christmas movies after the end of your book to today? It feels to me, just as a you know, sort of casual observer, and I haven't seen most of them, that they've continued on this kind of light, fluffy tone for the most part, that you know, a lot of Christmas movies are like these lifetime romance films that happen to be set at Christmas or something. But I'm curious what what you see.

Dr. Vaughn Joy  38:28  
I would agree, in general, with with that tone. I think we do have some lighter tones, but there are a lot of Christmas films that also do reflect much more serious things in society, and they're not all romances, like we have horror Christmas films with like Gremlins in the 80s. We have nostalgia laden like films like A Christmas Story, which is harkening back to a pre atomic America and kind of dealing with national trauma at another peak of the Cold War nuclear threat in the early 80s by going back to a time where it just didn't happen. It didn't exist yet. I believe Die Hard is a Christmas film. I think I've said that now three times on this podcast, but I do and that's an action Christmas film that is responding to social and political threats in the late 80s. And we have Scrooged, the Bill Murray version of A Christmas Carol that is commenting on wealth at the end of the the Reagan decade. So so we do have a lot of Christmas films still that are that are commenting on these things. And I think the main kind of theme in the 21st Century has been the kind of Tinkerbell effect of Santa, where if we don't believe in Christmas and the Christmas spirit, and what Santa can be as this figure of goodness and goodwill without a profit motive, if we don't believe in that, then it goes away. And I think that's a really post 911 idea where we can equate it with, if we don't believe in democracy, then it goes away and, and that's been really, really prevalent in these films of the last, like 20-30, years. Again, among other things, it's a complicated genre. There are many things going on all the time, but, but I would say that's, that's what we're seeing now.

Kelly Therese Pollock  40:24  
There is a lot more in the book we're not going to get to. Can you tell listeners how they can get a copy?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  40:31  
Yeah, it's, it's available everywhere that you can get your books online, at least. So Barnes & Noble. Bookshop.org, has it as well, if you want to support your local bookshops, and you can find it from the the publisher's website, where it is also open access. Please do check it out. And if you like it, please get a copy for yourself, copy for a friend, and spread the spread the Christmas Joy.

Kelly Therese Pollock  40:57  
Is there anything else you want to make sure we talked about?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  41:01  
The main message of the book, and something that I would really like people to just take away is that these films are important, and media literacy is important. You may not have ever really given It's A Wonderful Life, that much of a think, but it's important to do so. So if you have listened to this episode and take nothing else away but that these films deserve more thought, then I'm happy with that.

Kelly Therese Pollock  41:33  
And how can listeners find your public scholarship website?

Dr. Vaughn Joy  41:37  
Yes, thank you. My husband and I have just launched this new website this fall called Black and White and Read All Over. It is Black, White and Read, R, E, A, D.com, where you can find my newsletter, Ben's newsletter, and lots of resources for other public scholars to get in the conversation and share their work.

Kelly Therese Pollock  42:01  
Great, and I will put a link in the show notes as well. So Vaughn, thank you so much for speaking with me. This was such fun. 

Dr. Vaughn Joy  42:08  
Thank you so much for having me again. 

Teddy  42:46  
Thanks for listening to Unsung History. Please subscribe to Unsung History on your favorite podcasting app. You can find the sources used for this episode and a full episode transcript @UnsungHistoryPodcast.com. To the best of our knowledge, all audio and images used by Unsung History are in the public domain or are used with permission. You can find us on Twitter or Instagram @Unsung__History or on Facebook @UnsungHistoryPodcast. To contact us with questions, corrections, praise, or episode suggestions, please email Kelly@UnsungHistoryPodcast.com. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate, review, and tell everyone you know. Bye!

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